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I’ll do it, but only if you’ll help

If you wish to join the refuseniks, then you need to sign our other pledge - Phil Booth, NO2ID

Pledge “resist”

"I will actively support those people who, on behalf of all of us*, refuse to register for an ID card, and I pledge to pay at least £20 into a fighting fund for them but only if 50,000 other people will do the same."

— Franky Ma, London mother

Deadline to sign up by: 31st March 2006
1,479 people signed up, 48521 more were needed

Country: United Kingdom

More details
"As the mother of a young child I can't risk her rights with mine by contesting ID cards directly, but I want to do everything I can to make sure she grows up in a free country." - Franky

*Many people, including Franky, have told NO2ID that they really want to refuse to register but they feel that their professional or family responsibilities mean they cannot personally contest registration--which could stop them travelling, working, and exercising many other civil rights.

The government's so-called 'voluntary' phase is a lie. Linking your passport to the National Identity Register and ID card WITH NO OPT-OUT is coercion, not choice. It may, in fact, prove to be a violation of human rights conventions.

NO2ID has already found over 10,000 people willing to test this--and the government's apparent intent to starve out the non-compliant. They will need your support.

NO2ID continues to campaign against the introduction of ID cards and the National Identity Register on all fronts, for more information on what you can do NOW, please visit

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Comments on this pledge

  • Good idea!
    Edwin Lyons, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards would do nothing to stop fraud etc, in fact it would make it easier as all of your identity would be on one card. However, the real plan is to microchip everyone and track them using satelite technology. I believe that ID cards are merely a stepping stone towards that end.
    Martin Noakes, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There are two auto-updating buttons to promote this pledge. You can add these buttons to a web page or blog - instructions can be found here:
  • I would just like to thank all those that sign up here for backing up us "Refuseniks". I am in a position where I should be on this list as I have a lot of responsibilities but I have decided to take a stand and sign the refuse pledge.

    If the government can see that moderates like myself are prepared to go to gaol for our rights and freedoms then maybe they'll reconsider the big mistake they're about to make.

    If we don't make a stand against those that think they can dictate to us then they will forever think they can treat us like drones. Governments are there to serve not rule.

    Those that refuse or resist have their eyes wide open and fully understand the implications of a compulsory ID card. Those that look and see are truely wise.

    Say NO to ID, say NO to the database state.
  • While I appreciate the sentiment here, I will ask that people seriously consider taking the bigger step of refusing a card themselves. Only if huge numbers of people do this, will we have a real chance of defeating the wretched plan.

    Of course none of us want to go to prison. My wife won't be happy, my company won't either, but if we all refuse then prison will not be an option for this disgraceful government.

    It's time to make a real stand people!
  • This is one of Blair's most dangerous ideas. Is there a nazi/fascist/communist/taleban leader anywhere that wouldn't put it at the very top of his "getmeonenow!" list ?
    And why is Blair so different ? Oh silly me, I forgot, he's held to account by his party in parliament if he lies about matters of life and death...
    bob, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If you want to become an MP and you get that...

    and then you decide Prime Minister is really where it's at, and you get that...

    but it doesn't turn out to be all you thought, so you hang on for presidency of the EU, and you get that...

    and then that only works out so well... then what do you do?

    We need to find out, so we can stop him!

    Blair is an undemocratic despot who fakes democracy by nobbling the selection process as he did for the welsh assembly and tried to do for London mayor (but failed).

    ID cards just help his untrustworthy aims.

    Politicians and ministers are our employees and peers, not our parents.

    ID cards won't give the security promised and we don't owe them a chance to try it.
    Sam Liddicott, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Did any one see the documentary called 'stealing a nation'? Was any one alive during the government’s debate on whether the UK should go to war on Iraq? If ID cards do become a reality, I believe democracy is dead.

    (no offence meant but elections are a politicians game of popularity contest aimed at idiots who don’t care about who wins, rather than a display of facts and promises (that wont be ridiculously broken) to idiots who do care, like me)

    there again, I’m pessimistic, with whole lot of distrust for all current government systems.

    I still wish to fight amongst you agaist this step towards a masked police state.
    jack willett, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ladies & Gentlemen who have signed this pledge: Thank you, from myself, and all the others who signed the 'refuse' pledge.

    But please, please, remember: Life is all just 'give and take'.

    For example: Blair says "I won't GIVE an inch to terrorism ..."


    "... so I'll need to TAKE my electorate's freedom away instead".

    (PS Don't forget to visit and find out who is actually creating 99% of the terror)
  • I am extremely disappointed that a Labour government, which I wanted for so long, could abandon all their support for civil liberties and bring in a surveillance system that would have made the Russians proud.

    We are (or can be) already tracked by CCTV, traffic cameras, Oyster cards, telephone records, emails, credit card transactions and tax records. How can any government need more than that?
    Steve Muir, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We mourned democracy a long time ago. They knew implants were not feasible to force on people (due to physical nature), but since we all carry types of card around, then some bright spark latched onto this idea! There is a global plan being worked here, reaching deep down to the puppeteers within the secret societies trying to control and dominate this species. It is not just the concern of one nation, and the pattern is painfully obvious to see. From the number of people who I see mistrusting our goverment, I can tell this is shared; Nothing to loose in my battle - I would rather be proved wrong in the end than to be caught in a police state un-prepared, wouldn't you?

    I have pride in my nation and that does not include it's fat-cat goverment ... I will fight for what the country really is.
    Chris J Davenport, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Chris J Davenport:

    You are absolutely right, and would be welcomed, and very much 'at home', at
  • Our current government seams more intent on removing our rights and freedoms hard won. Middle england needs to wake up and notice whats happening.

    The problem is the database. Since when has the goverment managed to get an IT project working and not over budget. I dont have a problem merging passport and drivers licence for example but I'm not paying for another peace of plastic to carry around.
  • I think you should all read this as it's yet another way they will try to trick us in to accepting the micro chip. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they bypass the ID card altogether and go straight for the chip. Which is what they ultimately want: Here's a bbc news item (yesterday 28/07/05)
    Martin Noakes, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Some people might be interested in a pledge about non-uniformed police using firarms. See

    I've already written to my MP.
    Jon, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hmmm if you have a little read of the Bible like the Revelations part and the bit about the number of the beast that will be stamped on us all.....
    Jason, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Some of you might also be interested in a pledge about civil liberties in general, see:
    Frank O'Dwyer, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is it me or are the pledge members who are resisting ID cards more militant and open to the bigger picture as to what is really going on than those that refuse to have an ID card? Just an observation.
  • No, Duane. It's not just you.

    I have also noticed that the signees here seem to be more aware and awake than those who signed our pledge.
  • Why has someone reported my comments (1st on the list) as abusive??


    Martin Noakes, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Martin Noakes:

    There is nothing wrong with your comment. It is perfectly sensible.
  • Martin Noakes:

    It was probably Tony Blair. Quite abusive to him, I'd say!
    Nic Shakeshaft, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • who said David Icke was nuts?
    CHRISTINE, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Many things that david Icke has predicted over the years have happened, and as bizar as it may at first sound, you should listen to his indepth explanation of who we really are and the nature of reality.

    I wrote and recorded a song in which i used David Ickes voice and research for anyone who's interested.

    Visit his website (headlines) for the real truth the mainstream media tries to gloss over! You will find a link to it from my website.


  • David Icke is one of my driving inspirations, I have over 6 hours of videos he has presented and I follow his work, which is vital to my research into the illuminati.

    Concerning that link, on a musical note something dark and forboding would have drilled his samples into me more effectivly (I'm currently composing an album related to this subject myself) but good that someone is communicating this wealth of information through emotive means.

    Martin, I don't know who has been reporting your comments, but I am aware that there are people taking offense at the very fact that we are aware of what is going on in the world.

    Those phrases of Icke's based on speculation also have a large backing to give reason for his philosophies. Keep on seeking, everyone.

    Chris aka Reverand Heretic
    Chris J Davenport, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ladies and Gentlement yesterday over on the refuse pledge there was quite a heated discussion about the place of conspiracy theories within the pledges.

    Some members thought that discussing the bigger picture was beyond the scope of the ID card pledge. What I am trying to get across here is over at we welcome comments about the bigger picture.

    We are completely open to comments about David Icke and the Illuminati. If you want shout about what you know and you think others should know then come over and join our forum.
  • Many of us argued, in the 'heated discussion' to which Duane Phillips refers above, that for this campaign to succeed we must focus on those issues which are most likely to foster popular support - and those, it seems, tend to be the direct problems with the ID card/database scheme itself (e.g. the human rights issues, the problems of implementation, the spiralling costs, etc), rather than the 'bigger picture' (Duane Phillips again).

    Put simply, there are a lot of people - I would go so far as to say the majority of the population of the UK - who will not accept such 'conspiracy theories', and will not want to associate themselves (e.g. by signing this pledge) with those who advocate them; this will undoubtedly remain true, quite regardless of how eloquently and logically anyone here argues the point. To be blunt, the question of whether they are wrong to do so is, for present purposes, completely irrelevant - because in the short term the *only* thing that matters is that the NO2ID campaign succeed, and that the ID scheme be stopped. Whether you feel that people are closing their minds to a bigger picture of which they should be aware does not matter - we need support for this scheme, and we must do whatever we need to do to get it. If that means focussing, in these pledge forums, only on those issues likely to gather the most support, then I respectfully suggest that this is precisely what we should do.

    I want to stress, I'm not saying that any of the theories regarding the 'bigger picture' are wrong (I know nothing about this, so can't have an opinion either way), or that they should not be discussed. I'm simply saying that in the short term we must be prepared to present to the public those issues with which the majority of people will most readily agree. When the ID scheme is stopped, *that* is the time to try to disseminate other information, if you feel it appropriate to do so - but for now, please let's play a political game and get people on side.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic, Good point! It's worrying that the signup graph has dipped since the 25th. Mass support for NO2ID is the objective. Lets make that happen.
    Bob, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Fair comment/s. we need to stop the ID card being implemented.
  • The Pledge is something that could have a broad appeal, and is really worthwhile for anybody who opposes the Government's plans, for whatever reason, to support. It ought to be sending a message of massive, broad opposition to the scheme. Why people think is is an appropriate place for a discussion of other things beats me.
    Guy, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There is strong evidence that the Pledge does have broad appeal...when people actually become aware that it exists.

    The "spike" in signups to the Pledge on the 25th followed an article in The Register ("Support ID Card 'refuseniks' here.."). The other pledge - Refuse to register for an ID card - got it's 10000 signups in bursts too. For instance, 1400 people signed up within a day following The Register's article "Shun ID cards and .." (13/6/05) . The Register by the way, now carries one of the fetching "sign our pledge" links on it's front page .

    So, how do we get this Pledge's signup page in front of a LOT more people? Ideas please..
    bob, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The success of the pledge is ALL about promotion. We'll continue to try to get mainstream / (inter)national coverage - but it would really help if, e.g. you wrote to your local newspaper - they'll probably publish a short [c. 200 word] letter if you declare your personal opposition (especially topical in the light of today's admissions by Tony McNulty!) and what you did about it. Don't forget to give the URL!

    And if you have your own website or blog, please make sure to link to THIS page from it, using 'ID cards' as the anchor text. The higher ranking we get in the search engines, the better...

    Apart from that, you can print out posters and flyers from the link in the yellowish box above. We've had individual supporters gather over 150 petition signatures in a day, how about hitting the street this weekend and trying to get a few people to pledge by mobile?

    If every person who signed the refuse pledge got just one other person to support them, we'd be off to a really good start. I'll see if I can nudge a few more people to do that - I know some have already.
  • When i was 14 i thought Labour was going to make our corner of the world a better place to be. I am now 24 and while i haven't lost faith completely i feel that there is a faint aroma of jack boots in the air. ID cards will not make us feel safer but only more paranoid than we are already.
    joanne durrell, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I was about to pledge money.Then I read the comments. Much as I oppose ID cards, I cannot support an organisation or movement whose adherents include fans and disciples of the anti-semitic and seriously nasty David Icke.
    Jillian Gordon, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jillian,

    We have a common enemy and regardless of our beliefs outside this cause. We should stand united to defeat those that seek to control us and force us in to accepting something for which we have no need.

    If you have an opinion about the beliefs of other members of the list then surely it is your duty to educate and engage those members without being confrontational.
  • Please remember you are deciding on the value of the pledge itself to you, not anything others may say about it.

    The pledger has no control over comments. One should not assume anything about any pledge on the site from the noisiest vessels among its supporters.
  • Please ignore the nonsense a tiny minority have posted about David Icke etc. The do not represent anyone but themselves. This has been happening on the refuse pledge as well and I know for a fact that it's been costing us pledgers as people I know have been telling me they don't want to get involved with nutters when I've directed them to these sites.
    The vast majority of people pledging here share very serious concerns about the ID card / National Identity Register. My concerns are principally it's treatment of citizens as criminals-in-waiting, the ludicrous cost, the minimal benefit and the downright mendacious way the government has sought to spin the facts on this case.
    Rob, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I can't agree more with Rob. I have signed the pledge. I have written to my MP. We are making significant progress. But please stop talking about conspiracies. They may be true. It does not matter. ID cards are wrong, whether they are from a legitimate government or the puppet of a global conspiracy. This pledge is just about ID cards, and we will win by convincing people that ID cards are ill-conceived, dangerous, unnecessary and expensive. Let's win this fight first. We must all focus on this sole issue, and not bring the Illuminati, David Icke or global conspiracies in to muddy the waters and run the risk of us all being branded as lunatics.
    Nicholas Lovell, 16 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • the original arm chair ID protest.
  • When i was 14 i thought Labour was going to make our corner of the world a better place to be. I am now 24 and while i haven't lost faith completely i feel that there is a faint aroma of jack boots in the air. ID cards will not make us feel safer but only more paranoid than we are already.
    joanne durrell

    Did you never read any documentation that was delivered through every British citizens household in the early 90's telling you what would happen if you voted for Labour? Well you were to young at time I know that but I ask everyone else also do you not remember the Democracy Movement?

    They spent millions of pounds on a massive campaign to show that EU
    institutions would consolidate everything - one central government,
    stock market and courts, even military. Now they opposed the Euro
    currency like many brits do simply because we have no need for any new
    currency and it would greatly destabalise the economy - Look at Germany
    - they own almost all industry in Eastern European Regions and many
    energy companies in the UK but their economy is suffering badly still.

    If you accept the Euro and ID cards then it is the next step to a system
    where no money exists only credits on a card - no cash in hand anymore
    just a High Tech Totaliarian Big Bro Police State.

    Why should we be forced to have ID cards so we can be persecuted like
    Jews were by the Nazis.

    The Democracy Movement told us the future! They said exactly what would
    happen if Blair got in. We all got a VHS tape and letters through our
    letter boxes several times - I remember getting 3 posted in total. GM
    food was one the things the Democracy Movement said would be forced upon
    us and they still try to cover up contamination in our food chain .

    So you see it is the big picture that really matter here! (The United
    Nations' approve and endorse so many evils that I simply have too little
    space to fit in here.) Not just ID cards, I fully respect we have to
    focus on the specific campaign to ensure it's success.

    You all need to be educated and this can only be done by many years of
    personal research not by reading mainstream news or any local news even,
    they only feed us what they want to to get - not what we want or ask
    for! Unspin it. If you do read news on the Internet regularly enough you
    will see patterns that all political leaders agree on and promote, they
    all promote the UN Free Trade (which is opposite and not fair trade)
    which promotes GM crops and neoliberalism, now CAFTA has been forced
    into law using bribary and corruption this will be something we see grow
    more rapidly than ever before.

    All political parties seem the same and they're - they use varying names
    for the same policies and label them different but they're pretty much
    the same after they get in power. The Lib dems don't call student loans
    grants or loans but they are pretty much the same thing.

    Do you seriously think there is an alternative? NO, we have to make and
    shape it if there is ever to be one.

    If we allow ID cards to be enforce upon us then our kids will have DNA
    samples taken at birth and be expected to have chips implanted into
    them. These are Govenment policies the United Nation's promote globally.
    Time to wake up more people.

    Please print off leaflets and get as much support from your local
    communities and as you can or all will be lost. Your way of life will
    never be the same ever again if we surrender our Free Will, give all
    Freedom and Liberty to these terrorists in power.
  • No2ID ejected from government's ID roadshow

    No leaflet law applies to protesters but not government

    Do any of you have any plans for this weekend to promote our campaign?
  • You know moving us along forcibly by the police is supposed to be illegal since we have broken no laws and have caused no trouble, so you can see the Nazi style laws in place now, similar with the fuel protest where we are only allowed to be in one lane of the road.

    Thye do rule us not serve us but if we all work together we can change this. Do you want to allow our population to be enslaved even futher into a darker Matrix?

    Never trust any government especially not ones that (become) corporatise(d), only serve corporate cartels and world driven international polcies powered by transnationals and globalists .
  • Not only do ID cards do nothing..... I find this to be a total invasion of privacy, violations of rights...

    And if it does somehow succeed in passing..... then World War 3 may occur..... And all hell will break loose.....
    Jeffrey Wellman, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are just wrong, wrong, WRONG. Even the Met Police accept that the recent bonb attacks in Londo would NOT have been stopped by the mere precence of ID cards. After all, these suicide terrorists left a massive trail leading back to who they were, andwhere they came from. You hardly needed ID cards to find this out.

    Harold Wilson's gov't in the 70's looked at ID cards to deal with the Prov. IRA. He decided ID cards would not be effective whilst costing too much.

    Tony, you have been warned. Do NOT let ID cards be your POLL TAX....
    Ian Matthew, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This has been discussed before, and doubtless will be again, but nonetheless:

    I respect your right to believe as you will and to pursue whatever research you think important. However... this is not the place to do it. This pledge is about ID cards, and only ID cards. You may consider this issue to be only a part of a bigger issue (and for Icke, conspiracy theories and so on to be relevant to that wider context), but that wider issue has nothing to do with No2ID.

    In fact, as has been discussed before, associating this campaign with David Icke, etc, is only going to damage our stand on this issue. This isn't an attack on these theories - I have no idea one way or the other whether they're true, and frankly don't care very much either way - it is simply common sense. You must realise that the majority of people will take one look at the comments in this forum, assume that this pledge is about fighting a conspiracy, and will run away. Whether or not they're right to do so isn't the point. The point is that we need mass support for NO2ID, and the only way we're going to get it is by appealing to the majority view.

    Sorry to be blunt, but the simple truth is that, by discussing David Icke and related topics on this forum, you are reducing the support we will get for this campaign - and so you're doing the government's work for them.

    Please - *please* stop it.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I accept that to catch attention and to combat these damned things a "slick" logo/slogan like No2ID is needed. But beyond that may I suggest that we all stop using ID and always use "Identity Card".

    "ID" seems like just another part of smart 21st century living, and thus to many something to be sought, or at least not to be feared. I have a CD , a VCR, an ipod etc why not an ID? Just another piece of plastic like all the others in your wallet. Wallet? probably not, more likely to be round your wrist to make it easier to check the card number matches the number tattoed on your wrist. I bit far fetched? Wait and see- no please do not just wait.

    It is also a grammatical abomination. An abreviation for what exactly? I believe it had its origin in our consciousness in Britain as a piece of New York "Cops" jargon. See what I mean about the fast talking slick image?

    Now what does "Identity Card" conjure up? Something rather different don't you think? Altogether more sinister, much more 1984, Third Reich, etc. Including that fourth Reich the EU.
    Not an association the Home Office control freaks would like to be made.

    So please call them what they are with all the sinister overtones. Do not help their exponents market them as a smart and desireable life accessory appropriate for modern Britain, which is what they are trying to do.
    Dennis L Stephens, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Unfortunately too many people are trying to get on the "bandwaggon" and giving their personal points of view which do not necessarily address the real problem which is that in this "Nanny State" we have been coerced into surrendering all our rights as free people and are now just numbers. Why does this remind me of Germany in the thirties? The ID Card was intended to establish (a) identity and (b)the right to official residence in the U.K and not the colour of eyes or the size of our inside leg! Martin Stevens Bolton
    Martin Stevens, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have just read, again, the postings by Nic Shakeshaft, Dennis L. Stephens, and MartinStevens. Together, with a telephone call to no2id, London, I can understand and sympathise with the attitude of people who hold a view that single issue objection is more effective. But i'm of the opinion that this is not always the case.The subject, if defeated now, will only re-appear at some future date.
    There is only one way to put an end to the dangerous nonsense from Westminster and that is to attack their power of taxation.
    Some years ago, it was suggested that technology would put the people, the working man, the taxpayer, back in charge of their own daily lives. It didn't happen because of the vested interests, and Politics had by this time bribed so many companies, businesses and people who should have known better, bribed them with taxpayers money.
    However , I shall support this single issue objective, because it is right, and I have not yet been bribed, (but I'm open to offers?) Regards.
    A T Flynn, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We here in Canada soundly defeated the assinine proposal of ID cards in 2004. Government always screws up and always goes into cost overruns, nothing ever comes in on budget. ID cards are not only a waste of money but have no legitimate basis for existing. We already have ID we do not need more. I wonder how many MP's have shares in ID companies etc. It seems most new laws come into effect because some MP has a friend they want to give a contract to or give a contract to their own company. I figure after grabbing a few of the more idiotic MP's, taking them to the Thames, firing a few rounds into their thick skulls, and letting their bodies float past parliment, this stupidity would stop rather quickly.
    Jeff, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Over at the original "refuse" pledge, Neil Harding has posted a comment in support of ID cards, which refers readers to his website, here:


    I have written a response here:

    ...and would greatly appreciate any comments or criticisms (whether posted here, or as comments added to the post at that website).

    Thanks in advance!
  • The program of the domination by the New World Order come very fast. We encourage you to visit our web to see french and english news.

    If you are in the region of Quebec, Canada and want to help me, contact me.

    Thank's for this web who mobilize populations. french english

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My e-mail adress :

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have held off form quite a while as far as David Icke is concerned but unfortunately although some of the things he is claiming to be true are 'unprovable' the majority is actually happening as we speak! we now live in a society where it's unacceptable to 'say something' in case it is offensive to others. I think christmas is a good example of this (although I'm not a christian and disaprove greatly of orgainised religion). Go to and look at the headlines that you won't always see in the main newspapers but are there nevertheless.

    Quote; Peter Tatchel Nov 2005 Brighton: 'If history teaches us anything; it's that we give our power away to the state with extreme caution'.

    Martin Noakes
    martin noakes, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It is about time that this authoritarian government remembered that they work for the population and not the otherway around. Stand up to this pathetic politically correct rabble and just say NO!
    Matthew Bateman, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As a free-born English man I reject this attempt by government to 'issue' my identity to me and my children. I want them to understand they do not have the right to do that; they are mealy our servants.
    Philip Emery, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • O.k...I'm going to put my head on the chopping block now, as I feel I can no longer sit back and remain in the shadows watching the play unfold, I belive the main selling point of I.D cards is to combat terrorism, but terrorism by who? As a member of the territorial army (bomb disposal) I have always followed the news with great interest about the "war on terror" as it concerns me personally, I supported the war in Afganistan and Iraq, because like everyone else I was spoon-fed the media coverage of airliners slamming into buildings on 9/11....grrr I though, lets go kick some ass. That is until a friend of mine lent me a dvd called '911-in plane sight' I was shocked at what I saw, original CBS news footage of the pentagon on fire, I thought to myself "yeah,yeah, more conspiracy theories" then it actually dawned on me about what the guy was saying, the official story is that an airliner crashed into the side of the pentagon, I looked and looked, but could see no evidence of a large aircraft or even parts of a large aircraft, no fuselage, no seats, no luggage, no bodies, and only a relatively small hole in the side of the pentagon wall, had they already cleared the wreckage up? no because the firefighters were still busy putting out the fire...later the official story stated the plane had "completely entered the building and was hidden from external view", I revisited the footage, looking at this possible explanation, and dismissed it straight away..reason: surely the wings would have been snapped off in such an impact and would have been left outside the afformentioned hole, or at the very least would have left visible damage on either side of the hole? No damage was to be found in this respect in the footage, so the official story is a lie, a large passenger aircraft DID NOT hit the pentagon, but something did,to penetrate nine feet of reinforced concrete takes a missile of some description, who's missile? certainly not terrorists armed with box cutters...coupled with the lack off c.c.t.v footage released by the u.s govt, only five frames from a nearby checkpoint camera, that DO NOT show any aircraft, just a fireball, although there is a suspicious vapor-like trail in the top right of one frame, missile exhaust plume perhaps? I then examined the footage of the towers collapse, and realised that they had to be controlled explosions (my professional opinion) they came down too fast and too precisely not to be, you can draw your own conclusions from watching the footage yourselves, this is just an account of my own "awakening" to the web of lies which has been spun around us, and forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir, as I take it a lot of you are here opposing I.D cards because you have already joined the dots and seen the bigger picture that is forming, for those of you that have not gone through this process and say "whats this got to do with I.D cards" I refer back to my earlier statement about combating terrorism and the fact is you cannot combat terrorism if it's your own government commiting it against you!! You have to ask yourself why they want to sell you I.D cards based on the fear of terrorism when they create the fear themselves, the only explanation is the more control systems they put in place the more they can get you used to giving up your civil liberties, the more power the few have over the masses, ideal if in future you want to install a dictatorship, don't belive me? then tell me why G.W.Bush has systematically dismantled the American constitution, if we give up our freedom for security the terrorists(!) have already one..and don't get me started on the London tube bombings, our own mini 9-11. For more truths try INFOWARS.COM, wake up your family, friends, we can stop this, but the window of opportunity is closing fast.
    Mark Richey, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Down with the Nazi Totalitarian State!

    Down with state sponsored fear/terror and all intelligence agency industrialised propaganda campaigns.

    Down with the corporate government!

    We want freedom, rights and privacy.

    People power still rules, the world is this way because we allow the world to be the way it is.

    Wake up - self educate yourself - ignore and counteract all state opinions embedded in your brain. Feel free - let knowledge liberate you.

    We will never give in.

    We already won but this Regime keeps pushing further with their agenda.

    By the way contrary to many people's belief implanted chips are not needed for full mind control which will soon follow after biometric ID cards with a cashless society after the Euro has become the global one world currency - as the EU bankers say all other currency is scrap metal. Research MK Ultra - Nazi mind control techniques used by the CIA and are now perfected and have been for many decades. All is needed is ultra-microwaves to control any subject remotely - we all have our own unique bio-signature - our brain and body uses electricity and everyone is unique.

    For those who do not know many U.S. Government agencies were formed with 50 - 60% Nazi war criminals as employees after and during WW2 - the CIA were one of those agencies that were officially founded in 1947 with 50% Nazi war criminals - those who control the future controlled the past - those who controlled the past control the future.

    If you believe - you can make change you will - it always only takes a small number as history shows - we can shape the future and our own self believe systems are responsible for the way the world is now.

    Information control is mind control. Information is power. You will be ready to give up all your rights by the time more totalitarian agendas are in place. You allow all of this to happen - your life is worth freedom! So fight for it, never give in.

    Many are so easily manipulated and controlled - research MK Ultra to realise mind control is everywhere and can be used for good or bad. It is also a passive subconscious weapon. So you do not realise when you are being brainwashed so easily and are unable to think alternatively - this explains a lot of things. You will find it all for free online also - on file sharing networks - videos, seminars and books from them - but buy it if you are interested.

    NWO slave victims are now becoming more outspoken about their personal experiences, even though some have to risk their lives to do so...

    We already conquered Nazi Totalitarian ID cards.

    Will you let history repeat itself?

    Will you be the next enslaved prisoner of this world? The best form of a prisoner is one who thinks he is free. Allow this to happen and you support what the Nazi Zionists did to Jews. They were forced to have ID. It was also Hitler (that only allowed two flags on show in Germany - Nazi Swastika and Zionists - now Israel flag) that worked with Zionists during WW2 that wanted Israel state to be formed. And so it was. For those who do not know WW2 was funded by Britain and American Bankers, corporations and Government officials - now with declassified documents to evident this.

    Who stands to gain and benefit? The corporate terrorists do.
    NWO Activist, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • First, the website is under construction and needs help and suggestions from other people who are intent on curbing the power of the state. I do not claim to support everything this posting is saying, but the New World Order is there for all to see. Some detail might not be accurate but overall, the direction of politics is frighteningly obvious.
    And it is my opinion that the power of the State consists entirely in its ability to levy taxation. Remove the power of taxation and you will have governance not Rule.
    I am not seeking to impose a system of taxation. I want to impose a county by county system where taxpayers, and others, Govern their own little bit of the world. And then, with the agreement of the other counties, form their foreign policy and trade policy.
    Shall we forgo the global politics of Governments, and instesd, opp for local politics on a global scale?
    I first went foreign in 1953 with the RWK, Singapore and then up country into Malaya. In 1956 I stood on Flinders Bridge in Melbourne and watched the rowers getting ready for the Olympics. Then again, in 1976 I stood in the same place. One year later I gave up and flew home from Rio de Janerio just in time for Christmas.
    What a mistake!
    So you see, at my age all I have to offer is experience. Take my advice, cut those Politicians down to size, take the money away from them.
    Please let me have your feedback.
    Regards, ATF.
  • I've lost track of the number of times I've had to say this now... can we *please* just concentrate on ID cards here? The vast, vast majority of people who might come to this site are not going to be remotely interested in the conspiracy theories, they only want to know about ID cards. They are going to take one look at some of the comments on this page and run away, thinking that the anti-ID camp is based on these conspiracy theories - and it isn't! I'm not trying to curb your free speech; you're perfectly entitled to believe and speak as you wish, but this is not the place for it! I don't know how much more simply I can say this: for the time being, where this campaign against ID cards is concerned, the *only* thing that matters is getting enough mass support to oppose the scheme. And if you carry on posting comments here like some of those above, we will fail - and it will be your fault.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally agree, what the hell has the bible, 9/11 or any NWO type stuff got to do with the ID CARD (rhetorical!!!) Please don't confuse the issue. It's not that I don't trust the government it because I believe the ID card will not work, will cost to much, not to mention infringements on civil liberties. There are liberty thousands of conspiracy theory forums to share your views on please use those instead. This should be about the facts and opinions of the ID card only. I have signed the pledge and written to my MP and I even have the NO2ID logo on my car but I still feel like I want to do more. What more can I do?
    Grant Ogilvie, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No to ID, no to foreign travel. How do you deal with that?
    Judith Chisholm, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • At what point does the population take this seriously , is it when they know someone who has had the knock on the door during the night and been taken away, hang on this is already happening, fact,(usa COVERT FLIGHTS WITH PRISONERS}still people dont get killed for their knowledge in this country do they [NOT A CERTAIN DR GIVING EVIDENCE REGARDING IRAQS CAPABILITIES] still in this democracy you still have the right to peacefully protest in the street,WELL NOT IN LONDON IF THE GOVERNMENT DISLIKES WHAT YOU SAY,but at least you have the freedom to voice an opinion if you are not being insulting (unless you shout Rubbish in a Labour conference) .
    Sorry to be overly sarcastic and a little jaded in my views but we have to understand we have to be prepared to stand up and be counted otherwise its to late.(WONDER WHAT THE MONITORS AT SPECIAL BRANCH WILL MAKE OF THIS)
    PS its ok to be a little paranoid ,not to many nasty surprises.
    Wayne Halderson, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't like the idea of keeping "conspiracy theories" out of the public arena, and requests to keep them in their own discussion forums where "they belong"; they are seriously contemplated studies and knowledge accumulating sources, why not actually apply them and make use of them? They are not meant as entertaining anecdotes or supplements to fantasy talk, they actually exsist because they have substance to them. Shying away from them is no progression; as opposed to challenging them and realising (in this instance) the relevance of the conspiracy data presented could not be more applicable.
    Phone tapping and covert civilian auditing and tracking was once a brushed off conspiracy theory blamed on the so called 'paranoid delusions' of anti-government protagonists, and yet right now G.Bush is under scrutiny about abusing this very system. You ought to allow yourself to open yours and others eyes to more things as we are not progressing much, since the vote has now passed with a 31 majority for the go-ahead of registering for the ID scheme, and your conventional 2d world view of some of you 'old schoolers' is wearing thin.
    Since that vote is passed, now what can we do on the forefront? Is their light at the end of the biometric tunnel for our cause?
    Chris D aka Reverand Heretic
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith Chisholm: The only way to deal with it, in my view, is to renew your passport before the compulsory phase begins (i.e. 2008, which *is* when the scheme becomes compulsory, no matter how it's dressed up), and then to give serious thought to emigrating while you still can.

    Chris Davenport:

    I am one of those who has often requested that the 'conspiracy theories' be kept out of this forum (and the other pledgebank ID forums). For my part, this has not been because I dispute the validity or worth of any such claims, but purely because I am a pragmatist. The fact is that in order to stand any chance of this scheme being defeated at the eleventh hour, we need to convince vast numbers of people, very quickly, to contact their MPs and persuade them to vote against the scheme. For this to succeed, we have to play only to the arguments which are going to have the most immediate mass appeal - and let's face it, we're not exactly short of those.

    Deserved or not, the 'conspiracy theories' have a lot of bad press, and will certainly put a great many people off without even stopping to think about it - in which case, that's one less letter to an MP, and maybe one less crucial vote against the scheme. Is this kind of selective information manipulative? Yes, it is... but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Please, just stop discussing the conspiracy theories and other issues here. This pledge would be dismissed and laughed at if I were to email a link to it around my workplace, in its current state. No matter what your views, if you want the ID cards to be defeated then don't discuss other issues here, as that's just making this less likely to attract support from further resisters. The ID cards are a terrifying prospect that we should do whatever we can to resist. In this case, that means restricting discussion here to issues /directly/ related to the ID cards, in order that this pledge becomes credible in the sight of more people.
    Alex, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Fair points, but the main conpiracies discussed here relate to manipulation and control being the focus of these cards; and these aren't far fetched since they are being used (just in less depth and controversy) than some of the theorists here. And the majority of arguments against ID cards here are ,in all fairness at the moment, just a projection of the worries we have and currently unconfirmed fears, and what the meaning of the cards implies to us, thus all the arguments could be counted as conspiracy theories.
    The persons reading these comments on here can see both sides, the ones discussing theories at deeper levels, and the ones requesting they are not to be included, so damage hasn't been done as people can make up their own mind with weighed logic, and people can tell the much larger issue here is the fears of what these cards can mean for civilisation, and you don't have statistics of what each visitor in their thousands beleives here so you can't make the claims of "most will turn away". You will find that people here are just adding their 2 pence worth, so I just say keep it informative and minimal yet still keep focus on the same wavelength.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nanosciences et progrès médical

    Document officiel

    FORM S-1

    Officiel Document

    Also, I just finish a document about the concentration camps. Write me if you want to receive it. Lot of pictures of the secret plan of our governement.

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!


    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are a sinister sign of a police state.
    Peter Lucas, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • One of those links Maria posted contains more extensive literature on other issues, readers to these boards should read only if interested in the literature concerning some deeper issues about political and historical whistleblowers, and like other theorist's content, is for academic and scope broadening purposes for those who wish to dig deeper.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Having some experience of the UK immigration process I am able to inform Alan that we catch illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers all the time, their applications to remain in the UK are assessed, and if refused they appeal, then if they don’t like the result of that appeal they will appeal again until this avenue is exhausted. Then they will make a claim under human rights legislation and several appeals and spurious legal challenges down the line they might be removable. Each one of these cases costs the British taxpayer hundreds of thousands of pounds and at best ends in a free flight home for a lawyer’s meal ticket. It currently takes years to remove most FAS and illegal entrants who have no legal right to stay in the UK, even if they are put on a flight all they have to do is kick up a bit of a stink and they will be taken off the plane and removal directions cancelled.

    The thickness of most of the files that cross my desk can be measured in inches due to the number of appeals these individuals are entitled to, it is farcical and grossly disingenuous to suggest that an ID card will somehow speed up or bypass the legal process or even lend any weight to a prosecution. How do you think the European Court of Human Rights will react to a refusal based on not having an ID card – I expect that the ruling will be overturned, this will set a president and suddenly the UK ID card will not only be ineffective but legally redundant too.

    I believe what we have with ID cards is another example of Tony Blair blindly going ahead with a deeply flawed plan because he has travelled down a path so far that it is now too late to turn back, just like Iraq, we are getting ID cards so our Prime Minister saves face. We have an oligarch desperately trying to salvage his place in history by going out on a victory regardless of whether it is what the country wants or needs, the matter of government is just a PR exercise to this clown.

    To Roger, I know it’s unpleasant to think that the people that you voted in to run your life might be lying to you but you really should open your eyes and stop believing what you’re told to believe because at the moment you just sound like one of a herd of cattle, joining the queue for your brand. I’m not asking you to believe any conspiracies, but just to think independently as an intelligent rational human being about the events that have taken place since George W Bush took power, the timing of these events and to recognise who has benefited from the fallout, I suspect you will find a number of rich powerful white men slapping each other on the back. Just think for yourself, the answers are all around you.
  • If takeup of ID cards is high (via passport renews, say 80%), the government may make the card compulsory. Fair enough. However if it is then made compulsory to carry, a convenience option a few years from now would be to have it chipped into you (like a dog). With the public being told that it helps them as a convenience, its a small quick pin prick in the arm to insert, optional take up may (through similar to passport cooercion) become quite high - and very very difficult to live without - at this point you can't say no.

    A long and unlikely paranoid scenario maybe, but this or a similar position I would never want to be in. Whilst I believe in democracy and captialism, there is a certain famous saying by a social activist, Martin Niemöller whose theme can hold true here:
    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    This is why I am signing up today.
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yea, they realise that the need to have a passport for many working brits will compromise the scheme into working foolproof. Soon peer pressure will be on for the remaining minority to admit defeat and climb onto the bandwagon.

    On that bandwagon will be a friendly face, who comforts your crushing reluctance to relinquish your privacy and future freedom. "Don't worry.", the person says to you. "It will be alright. At least they know where you are all the time. Our fathers are looking out for us. Let me introduce myself..."
    The person produces his ID card, no handshake. You produce your ID card.
    "Ah. Nice to meet you #3243F"
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There is a very important point that everyone needs to remember:

    The government is there to REPRESENT us - not to DICTATE to us.

    When they start to dictate to us - they no longer represent us.

    When this occurs, you must know that you now live in a Police State where democracy, human rights and civil liberties are discared in favour of the diktats of the ruling (wealthy) 'elite.'

    Ask the Jews about civil liberties being eroded in the Nazi era - you might then manage to realise what's going on in time to stop something similar happening here.

    They seem to be setting up a totalitarian future for you and your children where potentially, you HAVE no rights except those granted to you.
    Anyone who thinks that ID cards are not going to be compusory IN EFFECT - are daydreaming. They might not be made compulsory to carry but the system will be redesigned so that you can't get anything done unless you VOLUNTARILY carry it - get the idea?

    It doesn't matter whether you have 'anything to hide or not' - it's rather more a case of, 'why should I have to prove that I don't?'

    Section 25 of PACE 1984 already allows the Police to detain someone until their identity is satisfactorily obtained. The 'war on terror' excuse is merely a false ruse to encourage you to accept the otherwise unacceptable.

    If you don't think an entire society can be manipulated post WW2, refer to the Apartheid era in South Africa to see how white's were conditioned to accept the otherwise unacceptable.

    It seems people think this sort of thing can never happen - when actually, it's happening right now in front of their eyes.

    And don't think for one minute that the Police are to be trusted with your rights - they are unable to think outside of the authoritarian box - it's how they operate on a daily basis and know of nothing else.
    Nick Brook, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Will someone please answer some questions without going on about fascism and Blair bashing.

    1.Will I.D. cards stop 16 year old children getting into pubs and clubs with their older sisters I.D.
    2 Will drug "mules" be caught at airports more frequently.
    3 Will shooping centres be able to keep known criminals and convicted shoplifters out.
    4. Stop bogus callers stealing from trusting people in their own homes.
    5.Help to detain and expel illegal imigrants with raids on fruit picking farms and other cash in hand businesses in our black economy.
    6.At least save 5% of claims that seem to be draining our social security bank.
    7.Stop millions of pounds worth of equipment disappearing from our hospitals.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund:

    1.Will I.D. cards stop 16 year old children getting into pubs and clubs with their older sisters I.D.?

    No. Every country that has ID cards has a thriving black market in fake ID cards. The UK will be no different. The Home Office's deliberately misleading answer to this is that "ID checks will involve making a connection back to the Register". It is patently ridiculous to suggest that every pub & club in the UK will pay the £21,000+ for a secure card reader & associated infrastructure required to make that connection [reference the RIA of the Immigration, Asylum & Nationality Act for the price of a secure reader]. So ridiculous, in fact, that the Home Office themselves don't expect it - their own pre-tender document shows they're planning just 4 or 5 such checks per card against the Register in any one year.

    Anyone arguing for the ID cards scheme on the basis of 'proof of age' needs to (a) read and understand the legislation, and (b) get some perspective. The Government claims these things are about National Security. If they can't prove that, then stopping some underage drinkers is hardly a substitute!

    2. Will drug "mules" be caught at airports more frequently?

    No. Catching drug smugglers is intelligence- and observation-led, i.e. customs already know about an operation or customs officers pick up people who look suspicious / fit a profile. People travel abroad using their passport, not an ID card (unless the card is used as a 'EU-passport lite') so I don't see how ID cards figure in your thinking at all. Unless you're assuming systematic cross-checking and profiling of every foreign traveller on the NIR? The Gov't are categorically denying they'll do this at present but even if they were to try it, the practicalities of dealing with that number of travellers would be prohibitive.

    3 Will shopping centres be able to keep known criminals and convicted shoplifters out?

    No. See (1) above. And are you seriously suggesting that anyone with a past conviction should be prevented from going shopping? I should imagine that CCTV and well-briefed security staff would be more effective, were you inclined to pursue such a policy. Please note that, in order to 'catch' some bad guys, you imply it would be absolutely alright for perfectly law-abiding citizens to have their movements monitored by the Government and recorded in the audit trail of the NIR. This is utterly unacceptable and, on disproportionality grounds alone, would breach at least Article 8 of ECHR.

    4. Stop bogus callers stealing from trusting people in their own homes.

    No. See (1) above. I don't think you've got the point. The bits of plastic can and will be faked, and most businesses won't be able to afford the kit needed to securely check a card against the Register. Ditto little old ladies in their flats. The problem is that people might assume that ID cards *are* secure and unforgeable when they aren't - a far more dangerous scenario, and one in which the trusting are made FAR more vulnerable than before. At least if a 'gas man' comes to granny's door, she might ring the gas company or realise he's not from her gas company. If all he's got to do is flash a generic ID card, then granny's jewellery is even more at risk.

    My example might be cliched, my point is deadly serious. An insecure system unjustifiably presumed secure is far more dangerous than the staus quo.

    5.Help to detain and expel illegal imigrants with raids on fruit picking farms and other cash in hand businesses in our black economy.

    No. You don't have to carry your ID card, so not having one on you proves nothing. Not having a record on the NIR (assuming the Home Office can solve the potentially insoluble one-to-many biometrics matching problem) might indicate that a particular individual (a) hasn't been Registered yet, or (b) is in the UK illegally. Or it might not. Further investigation required.

    Detaining and expelling people is the job of the Immigration Service, and they've been using biometric Asylum Registration (smart)Cards since 2000. If this is an issue that gets your goat then read up on what a failure they have been. And while you're at it, what about illegal *employers*? Do you know how many were successfully prosecuted per year by this Gov't (until the Morecombe Bay cockle-pickers tragedy)? One.

    If you're so dead set on getting rid of people who do some of the worst jobs in the country, then I'd imagine more raids would be your thing. ID cards, however, would add very little, if anything, to the process - which is why the Gov't have gone so quiet about this since the election.

    6.At least save 5% of claims that seem to be draining our social security bank.

    You're out by an order of magnitude.

    The National Audit Office puts the amount lost from payments in all benefits at approximately £3 billion per year.

    The most recent Home Office figure (taken from DWP) for the amount of benefit fraud that ID cards *might* be able to prevent is just £20 million.

    i.e. they may save up to 0.667% of benefit fraud, at a cost of many billions. A criminal waste of taxpayers' money.

    7.Stop millions of pounds worth of equipment disappearing from our hospitals.

    I give up. I have no idea what you are going on about with this one. Surely some sort of marking or RFID tags on the equipment itself is the solution?

    You clearly haven't understood, and probably haven't read, even the Home Office propaganda about the ID scheme. I hope my answers, which didn't mention fascism or Blair (until now) convince you that (a) you need to find out a lot more about the actual proposals - you'd certainly be able to answer a lot more of your own questions, and (b) that ID cards are "no golden bullet". In fact, if you Google that last phrase + ID cards, you'll find a link to an article in which the head of the Home Office ID Cards Programme says exactly the same thing.

    Whilst admitting that criminals will merely have to work hard to get two genuine ID cards from their wonderful new system and very hard to get three...
  • Phil please slow down and think.

    20 million of us need information.
    We do not have time to look up details.
    Until I read pledge bank I was happy to leave it to the majority of cross member m.p.s to decide for us. Now you have myself and 42 friends thinking.
    The cost is not an issue,the price of a mid week meal out,the security of my details are far more important.
    Birth certificate.
    School information.
    Driving licence.
    Credit card info.
    Bank details.
    council tax.
    N.I. Details.
    Tax details.
    EVERYONE KNOWS ALL THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT ME.What else should I worry about that is to be included in my I.D.CARD.

    Short sharp answers please..


    Take it from me, I will explain later why,your answers do not hold up.

    Forget about everything else and concentrate on the most worrying.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund I thought I'd wade in here, with just one example as you want short answers

    The government forces you by law to complete a census every decade. This information is then made available to companies - likely making a profit using your information.

    Now imagine that your ID card contains DNA information, information that contains details about heriditary diseases etc. How much would you think an insurance company would pay for that information? Its not a case of it being secure, its about trusting the people to use it responsibly AND to keep it secure. I wouldn't trust a government that lies to the public to keep this information private indefinitely, especially when they can be selective over what they can provide.
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund,

    I courteously answered 6 of your 7 questions with information that you now say you don't have time to look up.

    I sincerely hope that you and your 42 friends TAKE the time. I and my colleagues at NO2ID, meanwhile, are busy trying to educate the 20 million.

    Your assertion that my answers "don't hold up" and you'll 'deal with them later' is a response worthy of the Home Office. And they are yet to provide an adequate answer to many of the points I make.

    With regard to your last post, no - the government cannot guarantee protection of our information. No-one can.

    But you knew that already.

    I shan't bother to provide evidence because you clearly can't be bothered to read it. Unless you are willing to inform yourself and demonstrate that you have done so in explaining your position, I'm afraid this exchange is over.
  • Good point Ben.

    I will research and get back to you.

    1ST JUNE 2013...
    83 RAPISTS Were detained today with the unsolved crimes department claiming
    undisputed resistance.They were all traced by their D.N.A...I.D.PROFILE CARDS.A spokesperson for the victims of rape said.Thank GOD. these victims lives have been on hold now they can walk the streets in saftey.Although the crime of rape is virtually eliminated due to the fact that a rapist can now be caught within hours with just one tiny D.N.A.sample the police need time to solve a backlog of, up until now, unsolved crimes...
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Phil..

    Can you see no benefits in an I.D.card?
    Have you any alternative.
    Do you not think that maybe we do have a drug problem,and all of the other problems I have mentioned.
    Which computer did you have 7 years ago
    How powerful will your computer be in 7 years.
    Which mobile telephone?
    My oyster card can keep me out of the underground if required.
    IM SORRY IT IS LATE. I will answer your points in detail soon.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hello Edmund,

    You got it right first time - DNA biometric information should be with the police, not on an ID card for all and sundry to see. As with a recent news article on the BBC, the police are requesting volutary DNA testing of young adults in a small area to find the perpetrator of a crime. This is the correct way to do DNA testing. remember that the rights of the many must take precendence over the rights of the few.

    There are more effective ways of doing what the government wants that is less open to abuse and the infringment of civil rights. Instead of introducing yet another (predicted financally and technically) botched system they should fix the existing system including better vetting of the sponging/malicious portion of asylum seekers, communication between police to the passport office, the DVLA, Jobcentre, DSS etc. The government have a habit of setting up new departments/services and then shutting them (e.g. recently):
    and you must remember

    There's plenty more failed IT projects too.....!
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ben

    Thank you for your reply.This man in Croydon is still at large..God please may he be caught before he kills another young girl.
    Think of the cost of this police operation.
    A man is in police custody in croydon surrey accused with the assault of a young girl .The police confirmed he is the same man who killed a young girl in croydon surrey in 2006.
    The man was detained when his D.N.A on his I.D.CARD matched those of the serial rapist.........
    There are some evil evil scum out there.Our cities are full of Drugs and
    crime.Not even the police know the full extent of the criminal activities.
    We the silent 20 million trust the law to do all they can to protect us.If the I.D. register stops some of these low lifes,if they know its a dead cert they will be caught, they may not do it.
    If they do, they will be caught within hours, before they hurt you or your parents or your children.whatever it takes I want these criminals caught and locked away for a very long time.
    NEW PLEDGE..I WILL PAY £2 per week to build new prisons if 20 million other law abiding citizens pay the same every week..The pledge will be succesful within days.We are fed up of the minority criminals RAPING,ROBBING,MUGGING,ASSAULTING AND KILLING US...WE DEMAND OUR CITY CENTRES BACK..WE ARE CALLING FOR REAL PRISON DETERRENTS TO PROTECT US.
    In response to nic Shakeshaft
    PUPIL should not be allowed to teach again.He has betrayed our trust in him.
    Imagin if the girl was pregnant and had a daughter.The15 year old daughter is then a pupil in the same class as her mothers convicted teacher for it to happen again to the daughter?this is the stuff of hitchcock...
    Put all criminal records on the new I.D.card.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!

    "NOW THE 10 OCLOCK NEWS 1ST JUNE 2013..."
    Don't you think this device is getting a little strained now?

    "A man is in police custody in croydon surrey accused with the assault of a young girl .The police confirmed he is the same man who killed a young girl in croydon surrey in 2006."
    If you're refering to Sally Anne Bowman, it was 2005. Frankly, it is quite tacky and insensitive to use emotive, recent, real-life cases in this way, purely to try to gain ground from your readers' emotional responses. It adds nothing to your argument, and I politely request that you refrain. Nonetheless, since you raise the point (again):

    "The man was detained when his D.N.A on his I.D.CARD matched those of the serial rapist"
    The only biometric details confirmed as to be included on the NIR under current plans are fingerprints, facial image and iris patterns - not DNA. There will be no database of DNA, and so this use of ID cards/the NIR which you seem to be proposing will not be possible. It is true that this may change in the future, but it certainly won't be 2013 or soon after - for one thing, the technology does not currently exist to run searches for individual matches of complex information in a database of the vast size required. Again, this may of course change one day, but (even forgetting the privacy objections for now) it would be a very long way off.

    PUPIL should not be allowed to teach again... Put all criminal records on the new I.D.card."
    (For the benefit of anyone who may try to follow this argument, this is (I assume) a response to a post over on the /refuse pledge, dated Feb 24th). There are no plans to put any criminal records on the NIR (it is the NIR you are talking about, incidentally, and not ID cards, which would contain very little information in themselves), and *certainly* not to make information freely disclosable to anyone who takes it upon themselves to run a check on it... so, again, the NIR as proposed is useless for the purposes you advocate.

    Please read comment again.
    It was a reply to Bens previous post.
    Ben commented on the Croydon police investigation.I replied with the I.D.
    Dont you think this device is getting a little strained now?
    The fact that you have made this comment leads me to think it is successful.
    The police can track your car number plate for tax and ownership,They can trace for outstanding court fines by your name and date of birth.
    They can also catch you if you are wanted for criminal charges...
    All the I.D. CARD IS NEEDED FOR IS TO ESTABLISH WHO YOU ARE.Quick and easy process of elimination..
    £6 billion remember 25% will come back as tax £1 billion in savings and police
    savings.£3 billion spent in the economy
    what a kickstart..NOW FOR THE CREAM.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The fact of the matter is Edmund, that only the government believe this scheme feasible. Econmically third parties have proven it unviable, technically its a very high risk area. My council tax has gone up this year again, yet police did nothing when I had stuff stolen, likewise when my fiancé's 3 week old car was smashed up (not theft) and she was left crying in the dark and rain, with gangs around, and was offered no assistance. In addition for my higher taxes, I had to wait in hospital for 15 minutes whilst having a servere asthma attack, and they've now cut down my rubbish collection to every two weeks - face it the Government can't organise a piss up in a brewery, so it most certainly won't get this right *cough*millenium dome*cough*. As for selling the technology, I'm afraid they're on a loser. The US has a similar project on that is currently incompatible with ours, moreover, other European countries already have non biometric ID cards. If you're in Europe it would make sense to go with the common tried and tested, cheaper non biometric cards or the country that has the most influence in the world. Other European countries don't fear "terrorism" like ourselves and the US, so most are unlikely to want biometric cards. Incidentally Economic theory says that "war" increases innovation and efficiency in an economy can you see where I'm going with this? Re. my fiancé's car - no amount of biometric data would catch the vandals as the police *weren't interested* and the cost of DNA testing is prohibitive. Again will it benefit the common Joe? No. Will it help high profile cases in the news. Maybe.
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You may have heard that legislation creating compulsory ID Cards passed a crucial stage in the House of Commons. You may feel that ID cards are not something to worry about, since we already have Photo ID for our Passport and Driving License and an ID Card will be no different to that. What you have not been told is the full scope of this proposed ID Card, and what it will mean to you personally.

    The proposed ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register)., where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the back of your eye, and your photograph. Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there. There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence status, and many other private and personal facts about you. There is unlimited space for every other details of your life on the NIR database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without further Acts of Parliament.

    By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'. Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was presented. This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of Nat West, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. Restaurants and off licenses will demand that your card is swiped so that each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.

    Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database. If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a swipe. If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card,or a supermarket loyalty card, or a driving license you will have to present your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a mobile phone or an internet account.

    Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for example) all run very detailed databases of their own. They will be allowed access to the NIR,just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number. These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally. It will then be possible for a non governmental entity to create a detailed dossier of all your activities. Certainly, the government will have clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking, down to the level of what sort of bread you eat - all accessible via a single unique number in a central database.
    This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name and face.

    Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card. Whenever the details of how it will work are explained to them, they quickly change from being ambivalent towards it.

    The Government is going to COMPEL you to enter your details into the NIR and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye scanned, you will not be able to get a passport. Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.The arguments that have been put forwarded in favour of ID Cards can be easily disproved. ID Cards WILL NOT stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a compulsory ID Card as did the Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not 'eliminate benefit fraud', which in comparison, is small compared to the astronomical cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE (London School of Economics). This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen,and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.

    If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and you are as unsettled as I am at what it really means to you, to this country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues and everyone else you think should know and who cares. The Bill has proceeded to this stage due to the lack of accurate and complete information on this proposal being made public. Together & Hand to hand, we can inform the entire nation if everyone who receives this passes it on.,
    Peter Jobson, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Do ID cards facilitate an increase in police powers ?

    Generally speaking, yes. A Privacy International survey of ID cards found claims of police abuse by way of the cards in virtually all countries. Most involved people being arbitrarily detained after failure to produce their card. Others involved beatings of juveniles or minorities. There were even instances of wholesale discrimination on the basis of data set out on the cards.
    While it is true that cards containing non-sensitive data are less likely to be used against the individual, cards are often alleged to be the vehicle for discriminatory practices. Police who are given powers to demand ID invariably have consequent powers to detain people who do not have the card, or who cannot prove their identity. Even in such advanced countries as Germany, the power to hold such people for up to 24 hours is enshrined in law. The question of who is targeted for ID checks is left largely to the discretion of police.

    The wartime ID card used in the UK outlived the war, and found its way into general use until the early 1950s. Police became used to the idea of routinely demanding the card, until in 1953 the High Court ruled that the practice was unlawful. In a landmark ruling that led to the repealing of the National Registration Act, and the abandonment of the ID card, the Lord Chief Justice remarked :

    ... although the police may have powers, it does not follow that they should exercise them on all is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for any cause....This Act was passed for security purposes and not for the purposes for which, apparently it is now sought to be used.... in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public, and such action tends to make the public resentful of the acts of police and inclines them to obstruct them rather than assist them.
    Peter Jobson, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Do ID cards facilitate discrimination?

    Yes. The success of ID cards as a means of fighting crime or illegal immigration will depend on a discriminatory checking procedure which will target minorities.
    The irony of the ID card option is that it invites discrimination by definition. Discriminatory practices are an inherent part of the function of an ID card. Without this discrimination, police would be required to conduct random checks, which in turn, would be politically unacceptable.

    All discrimination is based on one of two conditions : situational or sectoral. Situational discrimination targets people in unusual circumstances. i.e. walking at night, visiting certain areas, attending certain functions or activities, or behaving in an abnormal fashion. Sectoral discrimination targets people having certain characteristics i.e. blacks, youths, skinheads, motor cycle riders or the homeless. ID cards containing religious or ethnic information make it possible to carry this discrimination a step further.

    Several developed nations have been accused of conducting discriminatory practices using ID cards. The Government of Japan recently came under fire from the United Nations Human Rights Committee for this practice. The Committee had expressed concern that Japan had passed a law requiring that foreign residents must carry identification cards at all times. The 18-member panel examined human rights issues in Japan in accordance with the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Japan ratified the covenant in 1979. The Alien Registration Law, ``the Committee complained in its report, is not consistent with the covenant''.

    Ironically, the Parliaments of several European nations, including France and Holland, have accepted a law introducing the obligation to identify oneself in numerous situations including, for instance, at work, at football stadiums, on public transport an in banks. While the card is voluntary in name, it is in effect a compulsory instrument that will be carried at all times by Dutch citizens. Moreover, foreigners can always be asked to identify themselves to authorities at any moment and in any circumstance.

    French police have been accused of overzealous use of the ID card against blacks, and particularly against Algerians. Greek authorities have been accused of using data on religious affiliation on its national card to discriminate against people who are not Greek Orthodox.
    Peter Jobson, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!

    Ben has (in my view) very intelligently dealt with most of your points, so I'll stick with just this one:-

    "All the I.D. CARD IS NEEDED FOR IS TO ESTABLISH WHO YOU ARE.Quick and easy process of elimination.."

    Well this is the polar opposite of what you have argued for previously, but fair enough - if you are now saying that there are no potential benefits to the proposed scheme other than as a convenient and universal method of proving identity (and age, perhaps), then I suppose I agree with you. However, if this is the only aim (and certainly it is the only aim which has any chance of success), then it is simply not important enough to justify the vast costs involved. If the proposal was to issue everyone with a photocard confirming their name and age (costing a few pence per card, of course, and not £93), but not linked to any central database, then I personally would not oppose it. I would consider it quite pointless, but nonetheless it would not be serious enough to warrant opposition. Sure, some forgeries of the cards would be made, but their intended purpose would not be important enough for this to present a significant problem for the country.

    The *actual* proposals are not like this at all. If the only legitimate aim of the cards is to prove identity, then 3/4 at least of the data to be stored in the NIR would be utterly useless, as would be the vast cost of the whole scheme. So if none of the other stated aims succeed (anti-terrorism: useless. Anti-fraud: the scheme is more expensive than expected gains. etc...), then all the predicted costs will be entirely wasted.
  • I do wonder when reading some of Edmunds comments, whether the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' has any meaning for him at all.
    Yes there are people in our society who commit terrible acts who must be identified and dealt with, but is it really necessary for every citizen of the country to effectively live in an open-air prison to achieve this end?
    We are human beings who are supposed to be entitled to inalienable rights, which have only recently been enshrined in European law, and yet the simple right to exist, without requiring a 'license' is already under threat.
    For all sorts of civil liberty implications, the Identity Card scheme is a bad one, but if these arguments fail to reach you, the sheer bloody-mindedness of this government, in its determination to squander billions of our money on a futile project should make you protest.
    Its YOUR money they're wasting, wouldn't you rather either have the money in your pocket, or better schools, hospitals, even more police?

    I used to feel a smug superiority when I heard about other countries whose citizens, (inmates?), had to carry identity papers with them at all times.

    Alas, 'Britons never, never, never, shall be slaves', may cease to have any relevance in Tony's new world order.
    Jim Lewis, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If this government can't implement a national gun register after so many years why does ANYONE think that they will manage a national identity register?
    Sam Liddicott, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jim Lewis: very good points. The thing that EDMUND keeps coming back to, and which I understand least, is clear from this extract (from a comment on 2nd March):

    "Can you see no benefits in an I.D.card?
    Have you any alternative."

    The underpinning argument here (and it's quite a common one) seems to be that it is better to be seen to be doing *something*, whether or not it has any hope of success, than to do nothing at all. I disagree: pointless action is still pointless, whether or not there are better alternatives available. Here, however, there clearly *is* a better alternative: better funding - and better organisation - of public services and the police.

    I think it's pretty well established now that the ID scheme, even if it worked perfectly, cannot possibly achieve any of its stated aims: it cannot impact on terrorism, it cannot make any significant contribution to fighting crime, and it cannot stop the vast majority of benefit or identity fraud (and will itself cost more than the small proportion it might prevent). It cannot even reliably prove identity, in fact, because the cost of the biometric readers prevents their widespread use. This is why reiterating the mere existence of problems in our society, serious though they are, cannot be an effective argument. If ID cards can *make no difference* to any of these things, then wasting money on implementing them is criminal.
  • Excuse me mr convicted mugger would you like an I.D. card?
    and you mr convicted pedophile?
    what about you mr football hooligan?
    Im sure you would mr convicted rapist
    now you have served your term the gas company would like to give you access to granny at home alone.
    Here is your pass mr career thief collect whatever hospital equipment you like,I know you only started on monday with that cleaning company.
    Now park your new B.M.W.over there next to those school children mr drug dealer,I know you are very busy but would you like an I.D.CARD....
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is Edmund serious? I mean "convicted" being the operative word in his little scenario, already on record.

    Give a forced/voluntary ID card to him and you have duplicate information about him since he is already on record, don't give him an ID card and the information still remains, since he has criminal convictions.

    What exactly is your point? Saying that "if we are to make cards voluntary, then convicted criminals definatley wont take them" (im paraphrasing). Well so what? We already know the cards wont solve anything that current criminal records systems dont do already, only bring in a clumbsy system with untested technology that the governments would spill their coffee on :P
    Not completely certain on what you are trying to convey, Edmund.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • O.K. CHRIS
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • EDMUND...

    No, but the fact that 'he' is caught dealing drugs to children might be enough to have him arrested on the spot, don't you think? What difference would it make whether he carried an ID card at the time? (And this, again, is also presuming that ID cards can't be faked well enough for the purpose of evading spot checks - which is highly doubtful, not least because police are hardly likely to carry biometric scanners with them!)
  • Spare me your capital rants when you have nothing to substantiate the theories you have spat on this board, especaially when you dont explain exactly what you are getting at.
    You said convicted anyway .. that means they are on record with the necesary finger prints, profile photo and description on database.

    The police know - they've done it this way for many years, and they know. Surveillance is a major operation and you know they don't take it lightly. Don't forget, they get people to follow known felons, they have CCTV to track known 'haunts' and a personal ID card has never been a neccesity to aid catching the perps, rendering the ID card superficial and making anyone law abiding who refuses it look like a criminal by that logic.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Caught dealing drugs no Nic.
    I said hanging about the school
    with intent.These guys dont get caught that easily.
    1st June..........2013
    Excuse me sir it is 2am on a council estate in tooting and we noticed you have met several people in the last hour. May I please see your I.D.CARD..
    Mr smith you live in Birmingham.You drive a new £36,000 B.M.W.
    You claim social security.
    You have 3 convictions for drug dealing
    What are you doing in Tooting at 2am?
    Please step this way sir.
    The people of the inner cities are fed up with Drug dealing.The police need all the help possible.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • March 15, 2006


    Wake up and Put a Hold on Reckless Deployment, Say Privacy Activists

    Privacy and civil liberties advocates have long been opposed to the use
    of RFID technology on consumer items and government documents because it
    can be used to track people without their knowledge or consent. But now
    security researchers are warning RFID systems are vulnerable to viruses
    that could wreak havoc on databases around the world and potentially
    facilitate a terrorist attack.

    Melanie Rieback, a Ph.D.student at the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam,
    gave a live demonstration of how a hacker could deploy a single rogue
    RFID tag and infect associated databases at the Fourth Annual IEEE
    Conference on Pervasive Computing and Communications held in Pisa,
    Italy, March 15.

    "Let's hope this puts the breaks on the irrational exuberance of
    Wal-Mart, Procter & Gamble, the Department of Homeland Security, and
    everyone else hell bent on tracking everything and everyone with this
    technology," say privacy advocates Katherine Albrecht and Liz McIntyre,
    co-authors of "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to
    Track Your Every Move with RFID."

    Radio Frequency IDentification (RFID) is a controversial technology that
    uses tiny microchips to track items from a distance. These RFID
    microchips have earned the nickname "spychips" because each contains a
    unique identification number, like a Social Security number for things,
    that can be read silently and invisibly by radio waves. Security experts
    have theorized that RFID would be targeted by hackers, but until now,
    most considered the limited memory on the tags insufficient to deliver
    such attacks.

    Rieback backs up her demonstration with details about exactly how a
    virus could propagate in RFID systems in a paper aptly titled "Is Your
    Cat Infected with a Computer Virus?" The paper opens with a scenario in
    which a vet's database seems to be erasing data from pet tags and
    finally freezes, displaying the message "All your pet are belong to us."
    (This is a nod to the Internet joke "All your base are belong to us.")

    This damage could start with one attacker writing malicious code onto
    his cat's microchip and exposing it to the vet's system, she claims. But
    that's just the start. Her university's press release about the
    discovery points out how such malicious code could infect retail
    databases and even RFID-based airport baggage systems, leading to more
    serious consequences, like a terrorist debilitating a baggage database
    in order to slip in a lethal suitcase:

    "A malicious individual could put an infected RFID tag on his suitcase
    (or someone else's suitcase). The bag will be scanned when approaching a
    Y-junction, to determine which direction it should go. However the mere
    act of scanning could infect the airport's baggage database, and as a
    result, all bags checked in after could receive infected baggage labels.
    As these bags move to other airports, they would be rescanned -- and
    within 24 hours, hundreds of airports could be infected worldwide. A
    smuggler or terrorist using this technique could hide baggage from
    airline and government officials."

    The university researchers recommend that developers incorporate
    countermeasures to "help reduce the threat of RFID viruses." They point
    out that these measures "take time, people, and money to implement" and
    urge RFID developers to take action before their software is widely

    "We've long contended that RFID will put all of us at risk," says
    McIntyre. "This is a wake-up call to RFID proponents who are recklessly
    rushing the technology into the marketplace before the serious societal
    consequences of tracking everyday objects and people with this
    technology can be fully explored."


    "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track your
    Every Move with RFID" (Nelson Current) was released in October 2005.
    Already in its fifth printing, "Spychips" is the winner of the Lysander
    Spooner Award for Advancing the Literature of Liberty and has received
    wide critical acclaim. Authored by Harvard doctoral researcher Katherine
    Albrecht and former bank examiner Liz McIntyre, the book is meticulously
    researched, drawing on patent documents, corporate source materials,
    conference proceedings, and firsthand interviews to paint a convincing
    -- and frightening -- picture of the threat posed by RFID.

    Despite its hundreds of footnotes and academic-level accuracy, the book
    remains lively and readable according to critics, who have called it a
    "techno-thriller" and "a masterpiece of technocriticism."

    "The Spychips Threat: Why Christians Should Resist RFID and Electronic
    Surveillance" (Nelson Current, January 31, 2006) is a paperback version
    of the original book that addresses Christian concerns associated with
    the technology.


    Katherine Albrecht ( 877-287-5854
    Liz McIntyre ( 877-287-5854

    CASPIAN Consumer Privacy //

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • NO2ID: gold standard to bog standard | March 16 2006

    Civil liberty and privacy campaigners this morning ridiculed the Home Office’s ‘bad news day’ announcement that ID cards will use a PIN number rather than biometrics for many transactions.

    Phil Booth, NO2ID’s National Coordinator, said:

    “So the Home Office’s ‘gold standard’ of identity is to be little more than a bog standard chip and PIN card. Identity theft will become as easy as a glance over your shoulder.

    “After all its overblown claims about the infallibility of biometrics and how highly secure its ID system will be, it turns out our identities are to be protected by nothing more than a four digit PIN. The Home Office may as well give away all our personal data to organised criminals and fraudsters, who will always target the weakest point in a system.

    “The Government lied about ID cards being voluntary, now it turns out they’ve been lying about making them secure. They’ll fob the public off with anything just so long as they get to build their Big Brother database.”

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards 'could use Pin numbers'

    DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press | March 16 2006

    New national Identity Cards could come with Pin numbers to check holders' identities, the Home Office says.

    Minister Andy Burnham said Pins could be used as an "intermediate" check.

    Anti-ID card campaigners say plans to use Pins show the cost of checking identities by fingerprints or iris scans would "bankrupt" the project.

    Meanwhile, the Identity Cards Bill is due to return to the House of Commons after suffering a third defeat in the House of Lords.

    It had previously been thought that banks, government departments and other businesses would use biometrics - including fingerprint, iris and face scans - to verify identities.

    Cost issues

    "A Pin number would be a new intermediate way of checking a card was authentic," Mr Burnham said.

    "The verification services that could be offered would be applied appropriately according to the business process that was involved," he said.

    That could range from a visual check to use of a Pin number to, in the case of "high-value transactions", biometric verification, he added.

    Mr Burnham conceded that the Pin number was "partly" being proposed because of the cost of biometric readers.

    The reality is that the only scheme they have a practical hope of pulling off is a bog-standard smartcard with a PIN number


    Phil Booth, of anti-ID card campaign group NO2ID, said the Pin number was "technology that criminals and thieves have already compromised".

    "The Home Office has publicised this whole scheme as being highly secure and based on the magic of biometrics," he said.

    "But the reality is that the only scheme they have a practical hope of pulling off is a bog-standard smartcard with a Pin number.

    "The network of biometric readers alone would bankrupt the project and that is why they need to rely on a Pin number."

    Shadow home secretary David Davis said the announcement was a "tacit admission" that the government was having "grave difficulties making the biometrics work".

    "They have gone from what they represented as a secure 'gold standard' to a makeshift substitute," he said.

    'Heavy handed'

    Liberal Democrat spokesman Nick Clegg questioned the need for both Pin numbers and biometrics.

    "In every other country which has ID cards it is sufficient just to show your card to verify your identity yet ministers here are already fantasising about the many additional controls which it can add to an ID card," he said.

    "The Government should not be surprised that no-one wants such a heavy-handed scheme imposed on them through compulsion by stealth."

    In the Lords on Wednesday, peers voted by a majority of 35 to keep the ID card scheme voluntary.

    The government wants to make it compulsory for applicants for new-style biometric passports to have their details entered on a national database.

    Ministers have threatened to use the Parliament Act to get the Bill through without Lords approval.

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not a number. I am a free man! The struggle to resist ID cards is part of the wider struggle for the people of the Earth to live together in peace. To that end, all I can offer today is this inspiring quote. I hope it makes you all feel a little brighter:

    "A time comes when silence is betrayal. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bosom and in the surrounding world....
    "Some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. For we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us....
    "We still have a choice today: nonviolent coexistence or violent coannihilation. We must move past indecision to action. If we do not act, we shall surely be dragged down the long, dark, and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.
    "Now let us begin. Now let us rededicate ourselves in the long and bitter, but beautiful struggle for a new world...."
    Greg, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Press Release Source: Research and Markets

    Cumulatively about $90 Million Has Been Spent on Real Time Locating Systems to the Start of 2006 - New Research Forecasts Spending Trends to 2016
    Wednesday March 15

    DUBLIN, Ireland--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 15, 2006--Research and Markets ( has announced the addition of Real Time Locating Systems 2006-2016 to their offering.
    Real Time Locating Systems (RTLS) seek, continuously and in real-time, to determine the position of a person or object from a distance within a physical space. For example, a physical space can be an entire hospital, a care unit, or a patient's room. More precisely, RTLS concerns people or objects being located within a physical space, without having to move through a portal into or out of that space, and without having to bring an electronic interrogator to the person or object.

    In this context, real-time means the system checks the location and updates the position of the person or object on a frequent basis and the information it receives concerns the situation at that instant.

    "Real Time Locating Systems 2006-2016" looks at the following key topics:

    RTLS Technologies
    Choice of RFID Frequency for RTLS
    Indoor Positioning Systems
    Long Range and Outdoor RTLS
    Combined and Parasitic RTLS Technologies
    Privacy Issues
    Market Size and Forecasts
    Companies mentioned include:

    Alexandra Hospital/ Singapore National University Hospital
    Sovereign Tracking Systems US
    RF Code USA
    Mercy Hospital USA
    Tagtec Australia
    Felixstowe Dock and Rail Company vehicles UK
    AeroScout USA
    RFTechnologies USA
    Trolley Scan South Africa
    Ekahau USA
    Nagoya Ekisaikai Hospital Japan
    Hynix Semiconductor Korea
    Palmetto Health USA
    BioRfid Solutions
    Student Tracker (TM) Program for Absenteeism and Dropouts
    Verichip Corporation USA
    Axcess International Inc USA
    ActiveWave Inc USA
    Healthcare Pilot USA
    Holy Name Hospital USA
    Advocate Good Shepherd Hospital USA
    Merrimac Industries USA
    Borgess Medical Center USA
    Jackson Memorial Hospital USA
    Klinikum Saarbrucken Hospital Germany
    Legacy Salmon Creek Hospital USA
    Massachusetts General Hospital USA
    Presbyterian Hospital USA
    Changgen Memorial Hospital Taiwan
    Tung Yuan Hospital in Hsinchu, Taiwan
    Vanderbilt Children's Hospital, USA
    Ascom, Switzerland
    Washington Hospital Center, USA
    Werribee Mercy Hospital, Australia
    Wirral Hospital, UK
    Metrotown Mall security Canada
    WhereNet USA
    Broekman Group, The Netherlands
    AM General Corporation
    Ford Van Dyke
    Inco Mine
    Yanzhou Mining Group China
    Marion Correctional Treatment USA
    Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center USA
    Birmingham Heartlands and Solihull NHS Trust UK
    Bon Secours Health System, USA
    G2 Microsystems
    Versus Technology Inc USA
    Wherify USA
    Sygade/ Max ID, South Africa/ UK
    Savi Technology
    Dow Chemical
    For more information visit

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Christians call for boycott of VeriChip, the implantable microchip, calling it ‘the mark of the Beast’

    San Diego, CA – Christians across the country are calling for a boycott of the VeriChip implantable microchip, now becoming popular in the U.S., calling it “the mark of the Beast” as referred to in the Bible. The VeriChip is planned to rapidly replace credit and debit cards, as well as traditional forms of identification. Could Revelation 13:16-18 have been any more specific? "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

    In 2004, the Mexican Attorney General and 160 of his staff received the VeriChip, and in April 2005, Chief of Police in Bergen County New Jersey, Jack Schmidig, received the VeriChip, marking the first time in history a U.S. official received the implant. The door has now opened in the United States, and soon we’ll see commercials with celebrities saying how cool it is to ‘get chipped,’ and this must be stopped.

    Radio Frequency Identification Devices (RFIDs) have been being installed in American schools as student tracking devices, and the move to implant them has gained worldwide attention. Christians around the world have been voicing opposition to the use of such Orwellian devices since they were first implemented, and now an official nationwide boycott has been announced. “We are calling upon all people to stand up and refuse to accept this device.” Says Conner, author of The Resistance Manifesto. “We can’t allow this Beastly system to be forced upon us.” He concludes.

    The Resistance has gained world wide press with their allegations that the war on terror is being exploited and is taking away American liberties. The perpetuation of the fear of terrorism is exactly what is behind the campaigns for such devices as the VeriChip and other RFIDs.

    John Conner, author of The Resistance Manifesto, says, "We are simply a group of Christians who analyze all facets of infrastructure, ideology, and technology involved in the New World Order,” pointing out, “the invasion of RFIDs carry enormous threats to privacy and many other security concerns. These devices are not a cure-all to security as touted by their manufacturers and supporters."

    Conner with legions of others have been speaking at churches and Bible studies for years, bringing awareness to the Orwellian influences in America and emerging technology. "What much of secular America doesn't understand is many Christians take these things very seriously. Due to editorial and political censorship our voices are often stifled." He says.

    We refuse to be turned into pieces of inventory by human tracking devices. With the release of VeriChip, the Pandora's box of the mark of the Beast, and the world rapidly advancing towards a one world governed, cashless, privacyless world, it is time to stand together in these end days. The Resistance Manifesto is a shocking analysis of Satanic influences in America today. Included are Chapters on the Georgia Guidestons, a mysterious 25 year old occult monument, and examinations of the Church of Satan, the Temple of Set, the Illuminati, and a detailed history of the VeriChip, RFIDs and the mark of the Beast.

    The Resistance Manifesto is available exclusively at

    Read the chapter on the mark of the Beast from The Resistance Manifesto

    Contact: John Conner, spokesperson
    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thankyou John, it's nice for others to see the Americans taking an interest in the matter. And as I've said before, carrying an ID card of this nature is the next best thing to being implanted and living in a dog pound environment. The government would think it would be too pushy to ask all of us to take the chip, so why not have a handy tracking device that is compulsary to carry?

    You have to take your arm everywhere you go don't you? And they will demand we all take the card with us everywhere we go wont they (frequent ID checks will keep us in line), so there is no distinction between a card carrying this tech and the implant tech if they do stick to their original design brief.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I wish there was a thanks button on here so I could say thanks to Nic for making points so well and so concisely!! You capture all my feelings and phrase them perfectly!!
    melancholly, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is EDMUND mad? He's on the arms against war pledge saying that he's forwarding e-mails from an Iraqi called Kamil, who strangely enough has a VERY SIMILAR OF WRITING MISSING WORDS AND EVERYTHING. Very suspicious.

    By the way Edmund, if you are caught for an offence the police will detain you in custody until your identity can be confirmed by the Police National Computer. If you lie about your identity you can be charged with deception and obstruct PC. A database state cannot and will not prevent crime; it will however facilitate crackdowns on dissent.

    Additionaly, why do you refer to criticism of the goverment as "blair-bashing?". This is about principles not personalities.
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Kamil is now convinced England is full of extremists.He said nothing against any of you,in fact he was very polite.
    He tried to explain the situation in Iraq to you.I think the police are more interested in you siml and your bunch of extremists.You are a rude little worm with nothing constructive to say but abuse.What a shame I thought pledgebank was a great place to debate.It does seem to be a meeting place for odd bod 1970 EXTREMISTS.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hi Edmund,

    Regrettably I've reported your post as inflamatory and personally insulting. You are in a minority with your views here but it does not give you a right to make offtopic personal insults instead of pro-ID card arguments/banter. For me, you've lost your credibility and any chance to change my opinion on ID cards.
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!

    Sciences physiques et nanotechnologies




    Browse Products | Advanced Search
    A Nanotechnology Consumer Products Inventory

    After more than twenty years of basic and applied research, nanotechnologies are gaining in commercial use. Nanoscale materials now are in electronic, cosmetics, automotive and medical products. But it has been difficult to find out how many "nano" consumer products are on the market and which merchandise could be called "nano."

    While not comprehensive, this inventory gives the public the best available look at the 200+ nanotechnology-based consumer products currently on the market. Prior to this inventory, the figure most often cited by the U.S. government was that approximately 80 consumer products containing nanomaterials were being sold.

    Please feel free to explore the inventory by browsing the products, or perform an advanced search.

    Further information about the inventory:



    Nanotechnology 101

    DISCLAIMER: This inventory has been compiled by the Project on Emerging Nanotechnologies (the "Project") at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars (the "Center"), which is supported by a grant from The Pew Charitable Trusts ("Pew"). The material contained in this inventory is for informational purposes only. The Project has made this material available to stimulate discussion and comment about the emergence of nanotechnology in commerce. The Project has no formal association with any of the manufacturers, suppliers, or vendors (collectively "Manufacturers") of the products listed in this inventory. Reference to any product, process or service in this inventory does not reflect the position or policy of the Project, the Center or Pew, nor does inclusion of any product in this inventory constitute or imply endorsement or criticism of, or commentary on, such product, process or service, or of such product?s Manufacturer. Any statements, claims and views expressed by a Manufacturer or by any third-party contained in this inventory are solely those of the party making such statement or claim, or expressing such view, and are not attributable to the Project. The Project is not responsible for, and disclaims all liability for safety and testing of such product, as well as for any potential hazards that might result from the manufacture or use of such products. This inventory contains "hyperlinks" to other web sites that contain information created, published, maintained, or otherwise posted by Manufacturers, institutions or organizations independent the Project, and the copyright and privacy policies of such Manufacturers, institutions or organizations apply to that material. The Project does not endorse, approve, certify, or control these other web sites and does not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, efficacy, or timeliness of information located at such sites. The Project assumes no responsibility for consequences resulting from use of information in this inventory or obtained at linked sites. The Project is not responsible for, and expressly disclaims all liability for, damages of any kind arising out of use, reference to, reliance on, or performance of such information. All Manufacturer brand and product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holder. Use of any trademark in this inventory is for identification purposes only, and is intended to be used only for the purpose of accurately describing the product to which the trademark applies.

    ©2006 All rights reserved by Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars

    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No Edmund, you did not think this was a great place to debate. You refused to read information posted to you or even follow a web link for further info, this is not the attitude of someone interested in honest debate.

    I hope you have fun with your imaginary friend Kamil.
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So you want pledgebank for your propergander machine and any free speech will be crushed. sounds sinister..who are you people ?you seem to know each other..why dont you want I.D....Where is your next protest sim
    sinister..I want soon as possible for everyone.We can then get you odd bods sorted out.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Uhhh, no Edmund, people tried to offer you counter arguments and information and you refused to read it.

    And talking about getting the "odd bods" sorted out, this is the best anti-ID cards argument I've found on the site. Congratulations ;)
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oh and it's propaganda, not "propergander". Your spelling is about as good as "Kamil's". What a strange coincidence.
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Keep on siml.I am wondering if you are an extremist or are just very stupid.Every comment you post is one less signature.
    I am giving intelligent people a chance to defend their views.Next stupid comment from siml..
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thankyou Edmund you really are brilliant comedy.
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • PROPAGANDA .Not a word 20 million normal everyday people would know how to spell.However if you are an extremist..Next stupid comment siml.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes Edmund I'm part of an extremist faction of spelling correctors.
    Sim1, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sim1, I regretfully join you in reporting EDMUND's comment, above, as abusive.

    EDMUND, I'm sorry - but enough is enough. Opposing views are (and should be) more than welcome, but from the outset you have never been interested in actual debate. A debate is where each side actually *pays attention* to what the other says, always willing to reconsider their position if necessary. From the start, you have either ignored what others say to you, or even explicitly refused to read it! Now that's all fair enough - you were, after all, doing your own side of the argument more harm than good - but now you're even descending into personal abuse. I suspect I speak for the majority here when I say: please either change your style, or depart.

    (On a lighter note: melancholly, many thanks for your comment earlier!)
  • I am sorry nic you are the one who has not answered the questions.You cannot give the suitable answers because there are none.You do not care about your fellow citizen.You do not care about the inner city crime.You do not care because you are worried about the police building a profile of you,and the rest of your lot.You are useing pledgebank to con people into thinking about i.d. theft when the hackers can get all they need from the system now.
    When Edmunds questions cannot be answered lets try to get rid of him.
    70 independent people think your a bunch of extremists who do not consider the protection of your fellow citizen a priority.Today I will start a petition which will include all of my comments and your replies.These will be sent to the House of Lords with the request that they consider the wishes of the majority of law abiding citizens in this country and
    vote for the peoples I.D.Bill.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • EDMUND: "Today I will start a petition which will include all of my comments and your replies.These will be sent to the House of Lords..."

    Fantastic idea! As long as you agree to include all of the comments on both sides, with no editing or omissions, then please do it, with my blessing.
  • Dear all,

    EDMUND has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he is what regular web users would call a 'troll'.

    Given several opportunities to inform himself and engage in rational debate, he has refused. *Please* don't waste any more comment space on NO2ID's pledge posting replies to him.

    Trolls thrive on attention, so the only way to make a troll go away is to ignore it.


    As this pledge is still live and attracting signatories, I would ask that everyone simply ignore EDMUND'S posts. Report any offensive ones, by all means, but don't engage with EDMUND in any way.

    Thank you.

    P.S. EDMUND, this is not 'censorship' or about 'winning' or 'losing' arguments. You are doing the equivalent of scrawling graffiti on a pledge that you clearly have no intention of supporting, or engaging with in any meaningful fashion. This is my last communication with you and, I hope, the last response that you will get on this thread.
  • Phil Booth: Fair point. Until recently, though, I have felt that the discussion EDMUND generated (whether a troll or not) was still valuable, because it threw up a lot of genuine, commonly held opinions about the ID scheme and allowed others to respond to them. These replies may not have been of benefit to EDMUND himself, but could still have been helpful to others reading this forum for information. You're quite right, though - enough is enough!
  • Nic,

    I agree that, up to a point, rebutting EDMUND'S posts may have provided some useful information to others (and I thank those who did this) *but* the whole point of this page is for people to sign Franky's pledge. If people want information, they should go to the NO2ID website - - or if they want to discuss the ID cards scheme and related issues, then use our forums -

    We have set up enough appropriate channels and mechanisms for discussion that we hope most people will be provided for.

    This is not a discussion board, its a pledge - and I'd ask that anyone reading this goes RIGHT NOW and asks (at least) 5 people that they know to sign the pledge. If you have any energy to expend on this at all, then that is what will be of most use to the campaign.

    Thanks again.
  • To all who want my ......sorry Phil Booths about..I better go underground..
    watch this space when hes asleep..
    Regards code name freespeechforall..p.s. dont just send your £20 without questions...
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I do not condone boycotting or ignoring Edmund if he has constructive posts or not. This pledge comment board was for everyone to give their 2 cents and opinions, and further debate should be on the forums I agree, as this board doesnt have enough room or scope (posts have better archives on dedicated forums too.)

    All opinions are welcome. Its ironic that these boards need your ID to be able to participate too (to be known to system), don't you think?
    Patterns in human social structures are indeed interesting.
    chris davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hi Chris,

    "their 2 cents and opinions" - Edmund was being derogatory and insulting with his posts calling all other members extremists - this is not an opinion on the topic in hand and so IMHO should not be qualified with an answer. IMHO a response is tantamount to somebody cursing you and then patting them on the back to thank them!

    Regarding the ID on this forum, I don't find this ironic at all. After all to particpate in wider society you need a bank account, a national insurance number etc, anonymous posting is not allowed due to the abuse that this would allow - it is to protect out little society (read the people who post here) rather than take away rights of a greater society, if it really bothered you you could have signed up with any number of email anonymisers - you have a choice.

    Personally I won't be making any more off topic remarks such as this, and as Phil mentioned this is not the correct forum, nor topic area, so I leave this with this thought (going from my possible mis reading facts/understanding) why is it that the house of commons (who supposedly represent us) have been helping the ID cards along with pro votes, and leave it to the house of lords to rebuff ID card proposals, e.g. the making of it compulsory?
    Ben, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Your local M.P. is in touch with the people on a daily basis.Your local M.P.
    represents the people.With all due respect my Lords we, the ordinary citizen, talk to our M.P.s with our concerns about crime,drugs,theft,muggings and how the police need the help of the I.D.card.
    We cannot walk the streets at night.
    If you live in a village in windsor maybe, but not in tooting.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • FREEDOMOFSPEECHFORPLEDGEBANK. Whats up with you lot anyway?
    I only called you extremists.
    Oh dear me look what Edmund called us.
    cut out his tongue...
    We cannot have our pledgebank open for debate.We just want money. so get out there and get some votes no questions asked.....This has been posted by a
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If it really bothered me anyway, Ben, I wouldnt have posted. Im just pointing it out. I did say 'ironic', not 'insulting - so I dont find registering an ID as poor form.

    As for Edmunds opinions, which they were before flames started erupting, as mis-informed as they were I still tolerate them. The content of a response suggest whether we acknowledge or 'thank' somebody or not, not the fact that we respond itself :P
    Creating deliberate resistance to a poster is what fuels flames, instead you should consistently neutralise it.
    Chris Davenport, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Your Lordships. This is an appeal from the families on the front line of crime in Tooting bec London.
    Your Lordships.
    We the ordinary working class people look up to the House of Lords with great respect.You are the most responsible body of people in the land who we believe make the right decisions for the good of the majority of people in this free and democratic country. I dont know how often you visit the inner cities but we have a major problem,much greater than even the police realize.
    Drugs,muggings,rape,theft and murder. The old and vulnerable,our children and ourselves,after dark,are afraid to walk the streets.Parts of this great country are exposed to the rule of the criminals on a daily basis.Compulsory will help the police to tackle these growing problems .
    Drug dealers at our school gates.
    Pedophiles in our churches and schools
    Criminals obtaining jobs that enable them access to our homes through the utility companies.
    Teachers,who gain our trust and then sexually assault are 15 year old children must never teach again recorded on their I.D.CARDS. Underage drinkers on the street corners. Children drinking in pubs and clubs.
    Muggers who leave fingerprints on the faces of our beautiful children.
    YOUR LORDSHIPS.Crime is like cancer it spreads even in your shires drugs are taken in Boarding schools.
    With great respect.
    yours sincerely The law abiding citizens of
    The inner cities.
    EDMUND, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • And the people who take care, why are they track like a criminel with all this biometric system, video, camera in home, civil guards, etc? And when peoples will receive this mark of the beast, goverment corporations will have perfect control on population. See this web site :

    The New World Order agenda is very dangerous. I hope you make a good research on that. By sure, they beging by using all the criminal to promote their vision but in reality this plan is a military program for the control of populations. Find this article in english. I hope you change your mind after this lecture.


    Maria, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Solidarity with the campaign.

    It is time not only for ID cards to be scrapped, and the money spent on useful services, but for Anthony Charles Lynton Blair to be convicted.

    He is a tyrant.
  • I am worried about the 50,000 pledge it doesn't look as though we will make it. I am getting a mixed reaction at the moment. when people start talking about the id card some seem quite happy -- they even say just think no more crime, how wonderful.
    When I told them that the danish or dutch cards have alread been broken they don't believe me.
    they also have very little knowledge of what RFID means. they think they are being given an unbreakable library card. they don't realise it is a dog collar.

    I think there will be a revolution or civil war.
    nina, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There was an old man called Clarke, who kept all the folk in the dark, to achieve enlightenment he removed their entitlement, and followed them around the park.
    He chuckled to himself one day as he threw all their rights away for when going to town if you don't move around you could be carted away.
    The Parliament should not have complied but spineless they sat down and cried, old Clarky had lied to the folks who'd not tried and all they could do was wait til he died.
    At last Cromwell Clarke expired and in the mud he lay there mired, but although he was gone his card lingered on.
    nina, 15 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I signed up for this pledge which was technically unsuccessful, but I would still like to donate to a defense fund. If a fund is created, please publicize it.
  • Thanks, Seth :¬)

    With the passing of the Bill into law, we shall shortly be mailing all those who signed our 3 pledges (refuse, refuse2 & resist) with details of how to donate to the defence fund.

    Finding a friendly law firm who can administer it and hold monies in trust (without charge) has proven more difficult than we thought!

    We appreciate that many who signed the technically 'unsuccessful' pledges may still wish to donate - and we have had many mails from people saying they will refuse to register as well.

    Thank you for your continued support and patience.

    Phil Booth
    National Coordinator, NO2ID
This pledge is closed for new comments.

Current signatories (Green text = they've done it)

Franky Ma, the Pledge Creator, joined by:

  • Hazel Featherstone
  • Adrian Godwin
  • Edwin Lyons
  • Kev Williams
  • Graham Bell
  • Lawrence Warnett
  • Tony
  • Paul Owens
  • Alisdair Hamilton-Wilkes
  • Jacqueline Munro
  • Geraldine McGreevy
  • John Robertson
  • Jamie Kirkpatrick
  • ed blundell
  • Tristan Beck
  • Marcin Tustin
  • Paul Sellars
  • Andy Boothman
  • Debbie Charnock
  • Karim Bakhtiar
  • Charles Robertson
  • Maurice Naftalin
  • Roxane Jobling
  • David Harris
  • Olivia Collins
  • Mike Scott
  • Rolf Clayton
  • Mikyung Jang
  • Ken Kilfedder
  • Pinball
  • Susan McKever
  • Bob Smith
  • Ian Mark Hatchett
  • Clare T
  • Daphne Hayes
  • Mike Blake
  • Duncan Hames
  • David Ellis
  • Andrew Eacott
  • Matt Williams
  • alan reilly
  • Ewan Spence
  • Robert Fox
  • Helen Gee
  • Jon Ward
  • Mark Littlewood
  • James Kennell
  • Sara Macdonald
  • Simon Pascoe
  • Daran Gill
  • Mathew White
  • Tom Hughes
  • Matt Kelland
  • Stephen Davies
  • Keith Starsmeare
  • Toby Allen
  • Tim Phipps
  • Brian Passingham
  • David Williams
  • Owain Thomas
  • Andrew Aylett
  • Mark Holman
  • Tony Richards
  • Tim Ivorson
  • alex lotinga
  • Darcy Harrison
  • gordon vernon
  • Camden Holt
  • Roddy McKenzie
  • Ciaran McHale
  • michael cadoux
  • Michael Basil
  • Suzi Wells
  • Emiel Ramakers
  • Barry Platt
  • William Clement
  • Nicolas Jessus
  • Paul Hackett
  • Lesley Sherwood
  • Lucian Holland
  • Tony Sterlini
  • Richard Taylor
  • Jim Hague
  • Benjamin Wilson
  • John Robson
  • Victoria Sandiford
  • Emma Davies
  • Andrew Smith
  • Nick Brooke
  • Leana Pooley
  • Dan Sheridan
  • Matthew Daws
  • bob
  • Roger Tucker
  • Andy Smith
  • Jonathan Gibbs
  • Brian Morrison
  • Phil Armstrong
  • Dan White
  • Mike Thompson
  • Milton Asquith
  • Sam Liddicott
  • ali campbell
  • Steve Nuttall
  • Tom Bentley
  • Pete Bradford
  • Gerry Gavigan
  • Daniel Layne
  • Paul Dundon
  • John Jackson
  • Jason Chong
  • Keith Templeman
  • Stuart Morris
  • Brian Dickinson
  • Austin Rathe
  • James Lynn
  • Andrew Jack
  • Daniel Bentes
  • Ian Yates
  • Brian Lycett
  • Mark Thompson
  • Tim Williams
  • Matt Freestone
  • Lesley Napier
  • Mark Fowler
  • Chris Dyos
  • Vince Wooll
  • Neil Mendoza
  • Andy Smith
  • jack willett
  • Michael J Saunderson
  • David Coast
  • Michael Darlington
  • Alex Holden
  • Rob Bricheno
  • Louise Tolman
  • Mark Allen
  • J Clive-Matthews
  • John Lawton
  • Malcolm Hutty
  • Timothy Wesson
  • Viks Bassett
  • Graeme McKinnon
  • Brian Outten
  • Phil Matthews
  • Richard Chater
  • Seth Schoen
  • Aldabra Stoddart
  • Clare Harris
  • Martin Walker
  • Jose Luis Martinez
  • callie
  • Frank O'Dwyer
  • Brian Wakeling
  • Helen Gibbons
  • James Barton
  • Antony Joyce
  • Rod Veleda
  • Simon Adlem
  • Jennifer Cochrane
  • Phil Roberts
  • Jeremy Newman
  • Nicholas Aleksander
  • Lucien Jones
  • ruth mansfield
  • Heather Buttle
  • Michael Annis
  • Mark Milaszkiewicz
  • Owain Davies
  • Richard David
  • Mitch
  • James Affleck
  • Steven Keith Tart
  • Dominic
  • reginald hardy
  • Tom Hallam
  • David Turnbull
  • George Collins
  • Elly Metcalfe
  • Gary Kell
  • Charlie Harvey
  • Greg Cooper
  • nikki
  • Malcolm Sewell
  • Danny O'Brien
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