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I’ll do it, but only if you’ll help

NO2ID is now calling in pledges and donations for the legal defence fund. More info and updates at - Phil Booth, NO2ID

Pledge “refuse”

"I will refuse to register for an ID card and will donate £10 to a legal defence fund but only if 10,000 other people will also make this same pledge."

— Phil Booth, NO2ID National Coordinator

Deadline to sign up by: 9th October 2005
11,360 people signed up (1360 over target)

Country: United Kingdom

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Say NO to ID cards and the database state!

Polls have shown for some time that 3 - 4 million people across the UK strongly oppose the Government's plans to introduce ID cards and a National Identity Register. Were this many of us refuse to cooperate then the scheme would be doomed to failure.

If the Government do manage to force through the ID cards legislation, this pledge will not only demonstrate the level of solidarity amongst opponents of the scheme - it will form the basis of a fighting fund* and support network for all those who refuse to comply.

NO2ID continues to campaign against the introduction of ID cards and the National Identity Register on all fronts, for more information on what you can do NOW, please visit

*all monies pledged will be held in trust for use in defending those individuals who are prosecuted for resisting registration.

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    Gentlemen we have a decision to make with reference to our European head office location.We intend supplying the whole of Europe with our products from one central location.With an annual turnover of 900 million dollars.Paris,Milan,Madrid and London are all shortlisted.
    My recommendation is London on grounds of security.Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals.All staff have to give details to the British consulate one week in advance for their card.
    The company will pay the $50 charge as it is a small price to pay for security.Keep the card on you at all time for if you go into a shopping complex without it the barrier will not let you in.This is to keep convicted muggers and shoplifters out.
    shoplifters have banning orders on their cards and the shops have given us all 3% discount they previously loaded on goods,to cover the cost of pilfering.The same applies to underground stations.Convicted muggers are not allowed in the tube network and anyone wanted by the police will set an alarm off when entering.This is all controlled by satellite coverage.When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent.what about those social security scams,one person claiming five payments,they have all stopped,saving us millions.
    The best of all is the total clampdown.This is when the security services suspect an attack.They have files on all suspects and if a button is pushed tube stations,buses,shopping malls and all high security buildings will pick up codedI.D.numbers if they are within the detector range.If they did not have their card on them they could not get access in the first place.
    Now the Brits have expelled over 1 million illegals ,they never knew they had,unemployment is very low.The tax revenue has increased and the taxes have been reduced.SMART BRITS.. SAFER BRITS...
    Last word... Dad can you give me £50 to go out tonight.I will catch a cab and I PROMISE TO TEXT HIS I.D.NUMBER TO YOU.....
    2013 ..Daddy could you see the sun until a few years ago?.What was it like?WHY DID YOU NOT CONTROL THE CO2
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund's comments embody a huge number of the myths that some people seem to believe about ID cards. I'm sure Nic will be around soon to do a similarly elegant takedown to last time, but just a few points:

    "Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals." Visitors to Britain will not have ID cards.

    "When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent." You're living in a dream world, Edmund. Emails can be encrypted regardless of wheher you had to sign on to a terminal with an ID card or not.

    "shoplifters have banning orders on their cards [...] Convicted muggers are not allowed in the tube network" Your vision of a state in which having once committed a crime prevents one from shopping or travelling ever again is, er, interesting. I'm also amused by your scenario of people being denied access to shops and transport in the event of a security alert -- what a great way to blow an operation's cover by letting people know you're watching them. You want to run an efficient authoritarian police state, you gotta think these things through...

    "Now the Brits have expelled over 1 million illegals ..." Edmund, how do you think the registration system for ID cards will work? People's records will be created on the basis of their existing documents. Which means anyone here on a false passport or other false documentation gets automatically legitimised. Your comment is a great example of one of the main dangers that many security experts have identified in this scheme: people will assume that if you have an ID card then you are "legal" or otherwise OK, when in fact the system will be just as prone to error and fraud as any other - in some ways, more so.

    " I PROMISE TO TEXT HIS I.D.NUMBER TO YOU...." How will you know it's a real number, or that it's not someone else's? You'll have no way of checking. Another example of the complacency I mentioned above.

    WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE IN 2006." Entirely agree with you there, but it's got nothing to do with ID cards!
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor, many thanks for the vote of confidence, but you've already discussed most of the points I might have made! A few things I'd like to add:


    "Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals"
    As Eleanor has said, visitors will not be required to get ID cards. If I recall correctly, this applies to those planning on spending less than three months in the country, thus making ID cards effectively useless at identifying those few foreign nationals who might actually be a threat. However this exemption will certainly not be removed, as it would affect Britain's business interests (many of those who have to travel to Britain on business would refuse to supply the required information, and so would not be allowed to enter the country... thus business would suffer. This is, I assume, the reason for the exemption in the first place).

    "Keep the card on you at all time for if you go into a shopping complex without it the barrier will not let you in"... ; "anyone wanted by the police will set an alarm off when entering", etc
    But... the current plan explicitly states that the cards will not have to be carried. I agree that this may be a planned future development, but certainly not for some time, and possibly not for decades. Many of the proposed "benefits" you describe have no place within current plans.

    "This is all controlled by satellite coverage."
    A small point, but: while it is certainly tabled that the cards may use RFID, this cannot possibly make use of 'satellite coverage', to my knowledge - the system just doesn't work that way. What this means is that any tracking (even if the cards had to be carried, which as I said above, they won't) can only be effective within range of RFID transmitters. It's not going to be very many places that can afford that kind of technology. Airports - maybe. Shops - certainly not.

    "When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent."
    As Eleanor explains above, you are clearly misunderstanding how encryption works. I could very easily sit at my computer (at home; at my own, registered address), send an email to anyone else in the world, and make it completely impossible for anyone to know what I have said. If you're good enough, you can even conceal the identities of the sender and recipient. Proving the identity of the person using a computer at the time cannot make any difference. Besides which (and more fundamentally), there are many legitimate reasons to use encryption!

    "what about those social security scams,one person claiming five payments,they have all stopped,saving us millions."
    I quote Mr. Lilley, in an extract from one of the Commons Debates: "Of the identified frauds and abuse in my Department only 5 per cent. involve abuse through misrepresentation of identity. The bulk of fraud and abuse is the misrepresentation of circumstances of people whose identity is not in doubt... [so the] gains which might come from a compulsory identity card would probably be very small."

    "The tax revenue has increased and the taxes have been reduced."
    So, in your conception, how would the country be funding the high costs of running the ID and NIR system itself, then?
  • Sorry Nic! Just never could resist an open goal.

    Edmund's comments are interesting as a representation of a mindset that is still alive and well: people who would actively like to see the establishment of an authoritarian regime in this country, because they believe (and the government is happy to let them believe) that it would "sort out" criminals and foreigners. It's the same mindset that welcomed the rise of totalitarian regimes in, for example, 1930s Europe because they thought it was high time something was done about all those "undesirables"...
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Elanor: Well said.

    On cards:
    I applied for my license to ride my motorcycle. I paid. I passed my test. I am legally allowed on the road. This is a form of control I welcome. It does not work fully, but it helps us keep safer.

    I will not apply for a license to live. I will not pay. It is a form of control I do not welcome. It will not help keep us safer. If I want people to know where I have been and what I have been doing, I will blog it.

    My grandparents fought for freedom. I always thanked them for that. I, like they, will stand up for my rights.

    "When they (the government) start to dictate to us - they no longer represent us." Bravo. Nic you have my full support in this campaign.

    What have I got to hide?

    What have we got to protect?

    Oh, you're a troll! Sorry for being so slow working that out, but there are a lot of people with some genuinely very strange, groundless beliefs about ID cards, and it was easy to believe you might be one of them.

    Nonetheless, (ignoring all of the irrelevant - although reasonable - environmental stuff), you do raise some points which proponents of the ID scheme could potentially pick up on, so it's worth addressing a couple of them anyway.

    "2013...7 years from now...I am sure technology will enable us to overcome all of your concerns by then."
    Well no, obviously it won't. The officially compulsory phase of the scheme isn't due to come into force until 2013 (or presumably 2014 now, since the lengthy Parliamentary debates have set it all back a year), and that's only for the full version of the *current plans*. The things you're suggesting (e.g. it being compulsory to carry the cards, and that you won't be able to get access to basic services like transport or shops without it) could potentially be introduced one day, I suppose, but it will be decades at the earliest. Not, I hasten to add, that it would be a good thing if they were! If someone has a conviction for something 20 years ago, and has been a model citizen since, it really should not be possible for society to continue to punish them for it forever, so the world you are advocating (or pretending to, probably) is certainly not one I would want to live in.

    "5% of our social security payments saved? Thats enough to give every Pensioner £300 at least per year towards extra energy bills."
    It really isn't, you know. If the LSE report (among others) is even half-right, then the ID scheme itself (even if it works perfectly) would take far more money to set up and maintain than it might save in reduced benefit fraud. Thus the country overall would end up worse off with this scheme in place than we are without it.
  • Edmund, you are missing the point completely! I'm sure the technology will be available in 2013 that will allow us to do the things you say. I'm sure that future Governments will start to supply cards with tramsitters when the technology is cheaper, the point is. I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO TRACK ME! What right does anyone have to do this?

    Why should the Government have my fingerprints? I havn't committed any crimes! Why should I have to prove who I am to anyone? This is supposedly a free country yet this is an idea which Himmler/Eichmann/Hitler themselves would have been proud of.

    Do we really want to live in a society where anyone can walk up to someone else and scan them to check if they have committed any crimes? What you are proposing is Fascism, nothing less! What would be next, storing information on people's religion, sexual preference or maybe their medical records? Then, we can round up anyone who has committed any offence (parking offences included) and lock them away in huge camps in Northern Scotland for the rest of their lives. Where they can produce cheap goods for the rest of the population. Anyone who tries to fight against this cwill get 'Special Treatment'. Sound familiar?

    Don't think this coudln't happen, it crept up on everyone in the 30's & 40's and no one believed it could happen back then. It CAN happen again. We are now starting to lay the foundations for it to happen again.

    I don't doubt that at some time in the futuure ID cards MAY help to solve/prevent certain crimes. But at what cost? There are far more effective (and cheaper) ways of preventing crime, ID cards are NOT needed.

    I can only hope that your Fascist dreams are just that. Dreams!
    andrew clure, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I note that the BBC is reporting that state school children in Scotland are to be given ID numbers to 'bolster a child tracking system'. In support of this notion, we are led to believe that this new scheme will have fantastic benefits (rather like our proposed National ID Cards...). and it is implied that it could have prevented the death of 5-year old Danielle Reid who 'no-one realised' was missing because her mother had reported that she had been 'taken to live in Manchester'.

    Wonderful propaganada for New Labour's Orwellian aspirations but is there anybody out there who can explain how reducing Danielle to a number would have saved her life?
    John, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
    Police at Heathrow airport have detained five young girls on drug charges.All five were on a flight from Barbados.It was only when their I.D.s
    were checked that customs detained them.All five were on social security benefits.when asked how they could pay the £1000 holiday charge ...we saved up was the reply.12 condoms full of crack was found...
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
    Do you class everyone with a concern about security a Fascist..sad have let yourself down.I am feeding you food for debate or do you want to silence my freedom of that does smack of......
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "It was only when their I.D.s
    were checked that customs detained them...." Really? And what was revealed by that magic ID check? Advance intelligence that they were going to commit the crime? Go on Edmund, I'm serious, I'd like to know how you think checking someone's ID gives you the tip-off that they'll be up to no good. Clairvoyance perhaps? National ID register, crystal balls a speciality? (and I think "balls" is exactly the word).
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor..

    At the moment the customs detect drug traffickers with visual means only.From 2013 everyone will produce their I.D.when entering the country and if you receive state benefit details will be on your I.D.You dont have to be inspector cluso to work out someone on income support may be up to something going to Barbados ,for £1000 holiday.
    This happens Eleanor Downside prison in Sutton surrey is full of these girls...
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ah, I see; I was thinking of quaint old-fashioned things like evidence, rather than having people handily pre-criminalised according to socioeconomic status.

    Possibly the most absurd thing about this projected dystopia is the idea that the technology would actually work. Here's an alternative scenario for your futuristic fantasies, Edmund: 1ST JUNE 2013: You are arrested and imprisoned indefinitely without knowing the charges against you. A routine check on your ID card has revealed that you have several past convictions and are known to associate with groups sympathetic to terrorism. In fact none of this is true, but the information has been incorrectly entered on your record, either by accident (an underpaid administrator updating the wrong file) or by malice (someone who doesn't like you has informed on you). You have no way of correcting this error, because "biometric data doesn't lie" -- it's on your ID record so it must be true, and everyone knows there's no smoke without fire... You are not released for several years, by which time your mental health is shattered and your career and family life are lost beyond recall. Still, I'm sure that's a sacrifice you'll be willing to make in the interests of "national security".
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ed,
    I'm sure the Inland Revenue have an 'extra contributions' leaflet that you could read. Then you'll be able to up your tax bill to cover all these changes and to help build more prisons. Perhaps your business profits could be used to fund the next 'Crime and ID Bill'. Perhaps then, you can flex your right to free speech in the same radically meaningful way as all those intellectual european newspapers printing cartoons of muslim clerics with bomb-turbans. Perhaps you could save some of your hard earned and insecure pennies to purchase back-copies of 2000AD and read up on Judge Dredd to satisfy your Sci-Fi pretensions and abstracted fears. Perhaps...
    with love
    Ian, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor and Ian, very good points. Just one simple thing I'd like to add...

    EDMUND, re drug smuggling: "This happens Eleanor Downside prison in Sutton surrey is full of these girls...". Yes, I'm sure it is. The police seem to have managed quite well up till now without ID cards, then, don't they?

    EXCELLENT POINT,the first I have heard so far...
    I will research and come back to you.
    If this is the case I will be the first to chain myself to Downing street..


    For every "mule" as they are described,
    that is caught, three get through.
    One getting through is one too many.


    Whatever you are on may you live happy ever after....
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund, In reply to your point. I don't label everyone with a concern about security a fascist and I certainly don't deny you your right to free speech (did I actually say that in my comment)? I believe completely in democracy and a free society. That is exactly why I don't want ID cards. I know plenty of people who want to be secure, but to achieve that we need a secure world. That is exactly the point. We need to make the world secure, how does a national ID card make the world safer? How does a national ID card stop a person from outside Britain, coming over for a few days and planting a bomb (or exploding himself on a bus?). I asked my MP this exact question, (I got a response from the home office)their answer: It can't! If it can't do this and it won't stop benefit fraud, what will it be used for? Answer: CONTROL

    The truth is, the world is only more dangerous now than it was 20 years ago because Blair & Bush have made it that way. The reason they have done is it to scare you. A scared voter will go along with anything. Even sign away their liberty in the name of security.

    Who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell me I have to prove who I am? I don't have to answer to anyone. if I comitt a crime, then I have to answer society, but only then.
    andrew, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 1st : hunting
    2nd: health and safty
    3rd: freedom of speech (since: mohammed cartoons)
    4th: not being able to campaign directly outside parliment
    5th: hand gun license-probably a good thing!

    {5th: ID cards}
    {6th: shooting/fishing}
    {7th: the lis goes on.......
    Oliver Francis, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We had the DVLA selling details from their database to raise money.

    How can we trust any government or agency not to misuse information held on these ID cards?

    Its time people woke up and realised the potential for misuse of any information held on biometric ID cards.

    The Stasi in East Germany used to collect information on their citizens.
    Mark McGavin, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm fed up of being told what to do, compulsory ID cards, smoking bans (tho no bans on making cigarettes), constant patronising govt cant on what I should eat, local authorities than can already demand to see my entire years bank statements to prove my income, hard won human rights and civil liberties are disappearing fast. Governments exist for the populace not the other way round. The Connexions card for young people is another backdoor way of getting our kids used to carrying a card.
    What happened to our England?
    Tess Stuart, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm all for rationalising immigration but it can be done by other ways than issuing everyone (even non-immigrants) with ID cards. Like, for instance, not letting anyone in through the border. :)
    Stephen Brooks, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't want to register for a compulsory ID card. Equally I don't want to be party to nationalistic, rasist, hateful ideals and comments like those made on this site recently.

    The government seems to be doing a really good job of getting people to hate each other. That way when they introduce ID cards, and other totalitarian measures, they are seen as our protectors.

    Don't let the bigots win as if they do so will the Government.
    Heather, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • should that read

    "Rick Elliott
    Proud to be racist - if only it was a Dying Breed" ?

    A huge white elephant of an ID card system (and to be honest, most people on here actually object to the national database, not the card itself per se) is only going to drag money away from the police and health system..... have a quick read of the most recent LSE report for some actual facts on the issue.

    ID cards are not a plaster that can be sucesssfully stuck on the existing damaged systems. They need to be sorted out first or the whole thing will be a disaster.

    and just by the way, how will ID cards stop british born and bred scroungers who get lots of benefits and have never worked to pay tax.... or are they Ok because they're white?
    melancholly, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Divide and rule always worked for those in charge whether along race or economic or religious lines. Sad to see its still out there. Not all benefit recipients are scroungers, alot of them have also worked or will in the future work. Stop listening to the propaganda.
    Tess Stuart, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • State benefits are a good thing - same as the NHS - something we should be proud of.

    However, once society as a whole started to deteriorate, and morals started to disappear, and successive governments started chasing votes from single moms etc we got a situation where teenage girls would get pregnant just because they knew they would get a council house - more kids = more money, so some will have 4 or 5 kids all with different fathers. People also don't want to take menial jobs - sometimes they are better off on benefits, and this can't be good.

    I know this first hand because I grew up and still live on a council estate.

    Solution ? - We should take a leaf out of Germany's book - there, if you are unemployed, you get state benefits, but you have to work for them - road sweeping, cleaning up the town etc. This isn't viewed as menial over there - the people are respected for doing the job.

    Anyway - back to the topic:-

    If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database - it is a good thing if it can stop crime or increase the speed at which criminals are brought to justice.

    to melancholly; ID cards won't stop british born and bred scroungers no, we have to bring in incentives to work, or rather deterrents to not working.

    What ID cards will stop is the hoardes of knife-wielding 18-30 year old eastern european men we see loafing around our town centres, sporting expensive leather jackets and Elvis hair cuts, hanging around, smoking, drinking, pick-pocketing and intimidating our women - That's also a fact - ask me, I live in one of those towns !!! - my Nan has lived there all her life, she is now scared to walk to town alone. So to all you left-wing do-gooders with your university degrees in sociology, typing away from the back bedroom of your parents house in some leafy suburb - wake up and smell the coffee - I'm not a racist - I'm a realist !!!
    Richard Elliott, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I should apologise and thank Tess for pointing out the unintended tone of my comments - I never meant to say that all people on benefits are scroungers, I hope I never become that full of angry stereotypes. I just wanted to illustrate, as so many people have already, that the kind of "problems" that people are trying to apply the ID card solution to are impractical.

    I'll take my university degree in psychology (not to be confused with sociology) and sit in a crime ridden area of a major city, in my own house, and choose not to look at ID cards through rose-tinted glasses as the magic cure for problems in society. Labelling me as a bleeding heart liberal may or may not be correct, but it does nothing to further your arguement apart from show that at least your ill-conceived stereotypes are not limited to foreigners.

    I do not have anything to hide, but I do not want to be spied on.... Also, given the rise of parties such as the BNP, I choose not to give every government from here onwards the right to look at every piece of information ever collected about me.
    melancholly, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The last part is bang on, Melancholly. I wrote to Tony Bliar and my MP about that very thing. I wrote "I am very uneasy about ID cards. Although this scenario is far fetched and very unlikely, What if sometime in the future we have a leader who is more dishonest than you/Tony Blair?"
    Jim Pender, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database"

    OK Richard, please end your next message by posting your full address (and any previous addresses), your national insurance number, passport number, NHS number, driving licence number and details of what bank accounts you hold. After all, if you're a law-abiding citizen, what could you possibly have to fear?
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Richard Elliot:

    "If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database - it is a good thing if it can stop crime or increase the speed at which criminals are brought to justice."

    If you don't see any value in the privacy arguments, fair enough - many people don't. An argument which might be more likely to persuade you, though, is simply this: ID cards cannot achieve any of the things you are advocating. It will not impact at all on benefit and identity fraud, or terrorism, and cannot make any significant impact (if any) on crime detection (the fingerprint records are the only thing that might, and the only result I can foresee from this is that more criminals will wear gloves. Marvellous.). The nature of crime may change a little, but its frequency will not diminish. The only way to achieve that is to deal with all the socio-economic factors which breed it, and seek effective deterrents, not seek a mythical quick fix.

    Arguing that there is no compelling reason *not* to introduce ID cards is not enough for you to conclude that we *should* introduce it. If it cannot achieve any of its stated aims, then it is simply a massive waste of public money which could be better spent.

    (And in case it's relevant to you, my background is in psychology and law).
  • before you say anything Richard, I work in IT, have not been to uni and am definately not a left wing activist. Quite the opposite!
    Even if you ignore all the idealistic notions of living in a free society, the bottom line is that this database will be hacked within months of it going Live. The basic notion (as I understand it from my MP) is that it will be used by private business (& Government agencies) to prove soemones identification when they apply for benefits or credit (say you want to buy a TV on Interest free credit at Currys). This way (the Government says) we can stop all fraud by using biometrics rather than easily forged documents such as driving licenses & gas bills. That means, there will be live connections from different companies to this database, this means using the Internet because t will be far more cost efficient to do it this way. What this also means is that, potentially, every person in the world could access it!
    And what happens if someone registers their biometrics but your name to get a card? What happens if the database is hacked and all that lovely information about you is sold to the highest bidder? No database in the world is 100% secure and with the kind of data being held in one place the system will act like a magnet to every hacker/criminal organisation in the world. Even on a very basic level, a hacker could use the data to send you loads of junk mail? The point is, the money can be better spent addressing the problems of crime and on a better police force. There are so many problems with this system it can't be allowed to go ahead.
    I have absolutely nothing to hide, but the point is, why should I have to prove that I have nothing to hide? Everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty, the Governemnt seems to be taking us down a road to reverse this basic right of a free society. A road I don't want to go down.
    Andy, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A Prime Minister more dishonest than Tony Blair. Really? Now that would be something. I did wonder why the government was so obsessed with ID card when the case for them has been so discredited. Then I saw the list of individuals who had 'loaned' money to the Labour Party. Surprise Surprise. Many of them are the heads of IT companies that stand to make billions, not millions, of pounds from their introduction.
    Robert Whippe, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • IT people need to make more public noise about this in other than IT specialist circles and publications. In countries where ID cards and databases already exist, are there figures for hacking into the systems?
    Ian, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic

    The majority of criminals are on drugs or its impulse crime.They will smash your car window or your face with whatever they can get their hands on at the spur of the moment.Get their hands on means fingerprints.Todays headlines.(not the 10 oclock news 1st june 2013) Mobile phone theft at record high.That means assaults on men woman AND CHILDREN are out of control.Stop this selfish attitude and think of the silent 20 million nic.We dont need Blair bashing,if it were Cameron it would still be 70% in favour of Protection cards (I.D. Cards)My Lords,with great respect,please think of the common people who are suffering daily with these criminals.Give the police all the help they need.This is not political.This is common sense.
    My recent research answers.
    Mr shopping centre manager what do you think of
    Bring them in now was the answer.We are fed up with,not only known drug addicts,who need to feed a £200 a day habit
    but also the gangs of pickpockets.
    Underground type turnstiles and the honest customers would love it.They welcomed the exclusion of the hoodies didnt they.Remember the shops charge 3%
    to cover theft.This could be refunded to the customer.
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic

    The majority of criminals are on drugs or its impulse crime.They will smash your car window or your face with whatever they can get their hands on at the spur of the moment.Get their hands on means fingerprints.Todays headlines.(not the 10 oclock news 1st june 2013) Mobile phone theft at record high.That means assaults on men woman AND CHILDREN are out of control.Stop this selfish attitude and think of the silent 20 million nic.We dont need Blair bashing,if it were Cameron it would still be 70% in favour of Protection cards (I.D. Cards)My Lords,with great respect,please think of the common people who are suffering daily with these criminals.Give the police all the help they need.This is not political.This is common sense.
    My recent research answers.
    Mr shopping centre manager what do you think of
    Bring them in now was the answer.We are fed up with,not only known drug addicts,who need to feed a £200 a day habit
    but also the gangs of pickpockets.
    Underground type turnstiles and the honest customers would love it.They welcomed the exclusion of the hoodies didnt they.Remember the shops charge 3%
    to cover theft.This could be refunded to the customer.
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Unemployed should clock in at the job centre at 6 am and out at 3pm everyday with their new I.D.card.Why are we so soft in this country.I am on a bus,a full bus,at 6 a m everyday with all the hardworking time clocking workers in London.The unemployed are still asleep in their nice warm beds waiting for their free payments to pop through their letter box.If I were unemployed I would not complain if Instead of going into London on a cold bus I could just sign on at the jobcentre.
    I would stay in my routine and if I could not get a job I would be pleased with my benefits,as I deserve.It would also stop me from getting another cash in hand job due to my attendance times....KEN.. £8 BIT STEEP old chap. This may swing some onto the dole.

    Can someone in the great solar
    explain .If these hackers can get into
    your accounts anyway .why are you worried about us having the new
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!

    Again, you are citing real problems in society and using this to justify your support for ID cards... but without establishing how you think they will help. Even leaving aside for a moment the practical issue of whether a database with 60 million entries would be searchable by police as a matter of routine (and there is no way with current technology that it could be, as the system would be utterly overloaded), you are forgetting that the criminals you speak of would *know* that their fingerprints were in the register. If you are suggesting that most criminals (drug addicts or otherwise) would be too desperate or stupid to exercise even the small amount of foresight required to put on a pair of gloves, while knowing full well that their fingerprints were accessible to police, then I feel you are likely to be sorely mistaken. Moreover, those few who really *are* desperate or mindless enough to lack that foresight are hardly likely to think "ah no, I'd best not carry out this violent attack, because the police have my fingerprints."

    This has nothing to do with "Blair bashing", it is simple common sense. ID cards cannot help deal with the problems you cite, whereas other things (such as using the money to boost funding for the police, instead) can. It doesn't matter how many "shopping centre managers" you find who believe that ID cards are the answer, because I'm afraid they're not.
  • Edmund,
    Anyone with the knowledge and tools can get into any system. It's all about time & patience. Getting into a bank is relatively straight forward, it's fairly common! But to do it and make a profit involves transferring money, this leaves a trail from which you can easily get caught. People hacking into the ID card system will do it just to read your records and potentially edit them. You might be fine with this, but I am not! So, are you saying that I can't refuse something that I don't want? Do you think it is fair to force someone to register their details, if they don't want to and have done nothing wrong? Don't say it's voluntary because we all know that if I want a passport I have to have an ID card, that isn't voluntary.
    All the people who support this (no where near 70 % from my experience), have never been able to tell me HOW ID cards will stop all the anti social behaviour. So Edmund, we have a junkie, wanting to get £20 for his next fix. How will an ID card stop him smashing you in the face and nicking your wallet? If you can tell me that I will be a step closer to accepting them. How will it make someone who is a lazy article, getting off their arse and getting a job? And, if I chose to blow up a bus in London, how would an ID card stop me from doing it? ID cards will NOT change behaviour (how on earth can they), they are for IDENTIFICATION, hence the name ID card! They are to be used for commercial purposes to prove who you are when you sign up for credit or claim benefits and to allow the Government to sell your details onto mass marketing companies. That's it! Please PROVE to me how they can do anything else.
    Andy, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Very well said Andy. It's really weird to read these commenters who seem to believe that an ID database will somehow "do something about" immigrants, numbers of people claiming welfare, people smoking on street corners (?!), etc. This is the constituency the government is appealing to -- the ones who seem to want to live in a world where "not being the sort of person I like" is a criminal offence, and who think ID cards will magically make that happen.
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • guantanamo bay - the most succesful tool for extremist recuitment in the world?! and unless you have to show your ID card and have it scanned to talk to a 'radical rag-head', how will it help? i just can't see any practical applications of these arguements!

    another point is that finger printing and DNA is very good at one-to-one matches - so if someone can be shown to have motive, opportunity and has left DNA at a scene, then it is compelling. as far as a DNA database which can be searched to find matches, the false positive rate will be enormous.
    melancholly, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Rick, if you had any brain cells left after your BNP meetings, you would know that suicide bommers almost always have no previous convictions. How many of the July 7 bommers had ever done anything wrong in the past? That is the whole point about suicide bommers, they have normal jobs, a house, a family, they work hard, don't claim benfits and appear to be completely law abiding citizens. Lessons Osama learnt directly from the CIA during the Afghan war with Russia in the eighties! Even if they had been very naughty in the past, how would an ID card help stop them blowing up a bus? If the police know they are extremists, then they know whether we have ID cards or not. It won't make any difference, all ID cards will do is to encourage people like you that the database can be used to isolate more and more people, which in turn will feed more extremism and more terrorists.
    Andy, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Andy.
    Date of birth 1ST JAN 1965.
    Birth recorded.mum and dad details.
    NI No
    car details
    work place
    Police record
    caught with pot 1982
    council tax details
    Driving license details
    Bank details(credit score)
    Its all there already.what else is there to know.
    Now your fingerprints please.
    Sorry sir.Did you send a letter claiming you are the yorkshire ripper?
    10,000 crimes waiting to be solved.
    These scum are on borrowed time andy.

    Could also be the scum who was going to smash you for you wallet.
    EDMUND, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund, Whate are you on? All the details already held about me are on seperate databases, I don't have a police record (not even a caution) and as such they don't have my fingerprints. So, if I have never done anything wrong (and don't intend to). Why should I submit my fingerprints to a central database that thousands of PRIVATE companies will have access to? And as far as I know, the fingerprints being submitted as part of this scheme will not be cross referenced with unsoved crimes. Even if they were (and the database query for this would take years to execute), you are assuming that fingerprints were found at the crime scene. Chances are, they weren't. Do you honestly believe that however much ID cards end up costing us (be it 5 bilion, 10 billion or 30 Billion) that the money wouldn't be more effectively spent on the police force? I'm sure if you asked any chief police officer or a PC walking the street, whether they would prefer an extra 5/10/30 Billion in funding or ID cards, what do you think the answer would be? They have ID cards in other countries, not to the same extent we are proposing, but they have them. Has crime been dramatically reduced there? No, because they don't make the slightest bit of difference. If anything, they make it worse because people perceive crimes like fraud to be impossible with ID cards, all that really happens, is that the nature of crime evolves. It is a complete waste of money, every day there are announcements of thousands of job losses in hospitals, I can't get into a dentist anywhere (not even 15 miles away), public transport is a disgrace and expensive, the roads are falling apart, prisons are over crowded, people are losing millions on bankrupt pension funds & we have a growing energy crisis. Yet, despite all these huge problems, you think it is a good idea to spend tens of billions of public money on ID cards!
    Andy, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Funny how one moment the pro-database lot are telling us there'll be no information on there that isn't already held, and the next minute they're claiming this same very ordinary information will magically enable the authorities to detect crimes before they're committed and send the evil thought-crims to Guantanamo Bay.

    By the way, Edmund, the former head of MI5 has said ID cards will not help in fighting terrorism and a senior MI6 official has said the system will be "a present" to terrorists and organised criminals.
    Eleanor, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hey you know what? - it would be a waste to spend 30 billion quid on ID cards.

    Why don't we spend it arming the police, giving them training, and telling them to shoot burglars, car thieves, muggers, rapists etc - that would solve prison over-crowding, and also act as a fantastic deterrent - that junkie would think twice about stealing for his fix if he knew he would run the risk of getting a cap in his ass !!!

    An old woman of 80 was recently punched in the face by a teenage thug, who stole her fish supper and the £1.50 or so she had in her purse. The shock was too much for her system and she later died.

    Within a month this scum bag is back on the street!

    If the cops had just shot him when they found him, then no more problem !!!! - and I tell you what, less crime because if you get caught, you die !!!

    Forget ID cards, arm the police, and really get tough on crime.

    Rick Elliott, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Rick, thanks for showing us your true face...

    As for ID cards and criminals - the sick fuck that stole my handbag, from my lap whilst I was in my wheelchair would not have been deterred by ID cards. Police said they were probably a junkie.

    If as expected his fingerprints are already on file, then the envelope that once held cash in my bag which they opened, will help identify them to police.

    I'd prefer that the money to be wasted on ID cards went towards proper, high quality drug rehab and counselling, with a higher profile for police on the streets, which has more of a chance of stopping crime such as these.

    Rick, before you start whineing, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal - just seen first hand how rehab saved an old schoolfriend, making him a constructive, hard working member of our community, whilst another acquaintance was banged up, not given any rehab with freely available drugs in prison, and the first thing he did on his release was robbery to fund his habit.

    ID cards will not stop the things you screech about, but well-funded and thought-through policies can.
    j, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Wake up Rick. The 15 year old is still going to steal the purse. ID cards won't stop that. What they will do though, is make it possible for you to be put in beside the 22 stone lifer and you will get a source arse for doing fuck all. Do you really trust Bliar?? Would you allow a pedophile to look after your children?? Check this out and see what Bliar's pals have been getting up to.
    Jim Pender, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally support this pledge and came to sign - but missed the deadline! Personally, I will refuse regardless of the consequenses, to have the scan or provide additional details. I imagine a symathetic lawyer will be required - any suggestions? I object on too many grounds for this comment box and note that many have been intelligently put across here by other commenters. On a side not, EDMUND (also known as Kamil) has an incredible grasp of the English language on this pledge - on mine, he is an Iraqi with poor English, who is pro-occupation.
    Good pledge. Namaste, Tina Louise
  • well i dont want a card i have nothing to hide at all.but i like my freedom to express myself and go where i want and would like to reserve the right our grandparents fought for, allowing me to stand up to people who would take that freedom away from me through their dictatorship. I just finished watching V for vendetta in the cinema and how similar does that look to where we are headed (in a hollywood sort of way).with the government filling us with fear by invading other peoples countries and then them retaliating against us. telling us of deadly bird flus, scary muslim extemeists and anything else in the world they can get us to be scared of or in a fight with,they have generated large amounts of fear of terrorism and anyone who differs from ourselves.this allows them to bring in an identity card which is supposed to help reduce terrorism and imigrants and benefit fraud amongst other things.with an identity card that can probably track our everymove, and we will no doubt one day not be able to buy toilet paper without showing it,they will have there foot in the door so to speak. once we are used to this it will be implanting small micro chips into us like we do with dogs saying it will be for our benefit as we wont need to carry cards as they can get lost or damaged costing us more money, reducing our tax bill (sounds great)and it will be better for the enviroment because plastic is bad for the environment and we dont want all that scary global warming do we(more fear). they will have total control of us leaving them with the ability to change laws and rules to suit them and anyone who stands in there way will easily be locatable and dealt with preventing any resistance against the government in any form, check mate.of course it wont start off like that at first im sure it will be a few limited things you require it for but then the requirements will probably grow over time untill you cant do anything without an id card.muhahahaha or perhaps in reality it will prevent anyone under 18 buying drink and knives and fireworks and other naughty things them kids shouldn't have that make our lives miserable, it might also speed up the process that gets us our various types of benefit, or save us digging around the house trying to find two forms of i.d every time you want a loan or credit card or even a video card so it may be a good thing after all hmmm....the debate continues.
    gareth, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I heard this scheme was going to cost £19 billion over 10 years to run.

    That £19 billion could instead be used to fund an extra 64,000 policemen/women over 10 years.
    David, 14 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tina,

    Thanks for your support, sorry the deadline had expired.

    With the passing of the ID cards Bill into law, we shall shortly be mailing all those who signed our 3 pledges (refuse, refuse2 & resist) with details of how to donate to the defence fund. There is of course no obligation to pay up on an 'unsuccessful' pledge - but many have already told us that they will.

    Finding a friendly law firm who can administer it and hold monies in trust (without charge) has proven a little more difficult than we had hoped!

    We also appreciate that there are quite a number of people like you who will refuse to register as well. We'll be providing another way for people to declare this, soon.

    Thank you for your patience.

    Phil Booth
    National Coordinator, NO2ID
This pledge is closed for new comments.

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