United States
I’ll do it, but only if you’ll help

NO2ID is now calling in pledges and donations for the legal defence fund. More info and updates at www.no2id.net/pledge/ - Phil Booth, NO2ID

Pledge “refuse”

"I will refuse to register for an ID card and will donate £10 to a legal defence fund but only if 10,000 other people will also make this same pledge."

— Phil Booth, NO2ID National Coordinator

Deadline to sign up by: 9th October 2005
11,360 people signed up (1360 over target)

Country: United Kingdom

More details
Say NO to ID cards and the database state!

Polls have shown for some time that 3 - 4 million people across the UK strongly oppose the Government's plans to introduce ID cards and a National Identity Register. Were this many of us refuse to cooperate then the scheme would be doomed to failure.

If the Government do manage to force through the ID cards legislation, this pledge will not only demonstrate the level of solidarity amongst opponents of the scheme - it will form the basis of a fighting fund* and support network for all those who refuse to comply.

NO2ID continues to campaign against the introduction of ID cards and the National Identity Register on all fronts, for more information on what you can do NOW, please visit www.no2id.net


*all monies pledged will be held in trust for use in defending those individuals who are prosecuted for resisting registration.

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Comments on this pledge

  • With you all the way!
  • I will refuse to co-operate with an ID card and national data register scheme whether or not 10,000 other people have also pledged to do so.
    Albert Beale, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A sub-editor writes:
    "I will refuse to register for an ID card and *will* donate £10 to a legal defence fund", shirley?
  • Thanks -- now fixed!
  • Hi,

    Why not place an auction on eBay including suitable keywords in the description that will draw in the most number of people via searches (e.g. "Got £10 spare after buying an iPod or DVD / MP3 / Video Player or Playstation or TV, then why not pledge to NO2ID instead?" etc.)?

    You could then find a wider audience and use a suitable payment medium (PayPal) to handle credit card transactions to aid your cause.

    Good luck! :)
  • I will refuse an ID card whatever happens, and so they will stop my disability benefits- my sole income and my right under law as a severely disabled person- and my access to NHS treatment. Blair & co have shown themselves to be disregarding of human rights, whether in Iraq, Guantanamo, Afghanistan, UK. Whatever they do to you as retaliation for refusing an ID card, go to the press. The fight back starts here. They must be stopped.
    Janie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There is nothing to be scared of unless you have something to hide.....or have any semblance of intelligence. I'm yet to hear of any decent reason for them.....and I've heard loads against.
    Chris Newman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I shall refuse to have anything to do with the ID card and national database scheme come what may and will be very pleased to donate £10 to the legal fund, immaterial of the number of sigatures this appeal generates.

    Meantime, keep up the good work!
    Lucas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm so glad for this opportunity to exercise my right to protest and to join something with solidarity behind it. I really believe it's time the British started to be pro-active in protecting what freedom they have, and the only way to do that is like this - en masse. Can we not protest like this against the council tax as well?! Can we not demand to get audits of where all our parking / traffic fines go etc etc etc?
    Lisa Brackenridge, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are a sign of a paranoid government, not a question of security or public safety. I will refuse to carry an ID card.
    Geoff Mason, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already wrote to the (then) Home Secretary Blunkett stating my opposition to the scheme, and told him that I would never, ever carry an ID card. It is important that we all go through with this IF it happens. There will be too many people that need support and help who will be outside the (unjust) law then. Too many important issues have already gone to the wall due to lethargy and fear, and we cannot allow ID cards to be one of them. Don't just protest, fight!
    Jennifer Hynes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If ID cards are crucial for National Security why are they not essentially introduced immediately?

    And, combine ID cards with Road Trackers (for new road pricing) and we will have absolutely no privacy! I have nothing to hide but I don't want anyone to have the right to know where I am or what I choose to do, no matter how innocuous
    Peter Cope, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm having great fun refreshing my browser to watch the sign-up figures mounting up moment-by-moment. So reassuring to know that, at this point in time, there are 233 . . . no . . . 238 . . . no, sorry . . . 246 . . . oops! . . . 255 free-thinking individuals who have already signed up.

    Power to the protest!
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The 'if you haven't got anything to hide' argument is wearing thin! Whatever happened to privacy? I have the right not to be tracked by a government that I did not vote for; a government that attacks asylum seekers; a government that thinks that killing civillians in Iraq is more important to suck up to Bush than providing decent benefits, pensions and healthcare.
    Julie Fowler, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are pointless, expensive and open to abuse by the authorities. There is no rationale for their introduction now or at any time in the future.
    Rohan Lightfoot, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is violated whenever people are made to account for themselves without just cause. If I had to produce an ID card on demand anytime, or risk going to prison, I might as well *be* in prison!

    ID cards will be wide open to abuse and will actually *increase* crime, not reduce it. ID card forgery, misuse of ID database ..... not to mention the chaos that will be caused *when*, not if, the technology breaks down.
    A J Stiles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Should it not be 'I shall...'?
    B Wooster, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will refuse to have an ID card whether or not 10,000 other people also refuse. But we need 10,000 people to refuse in order to stop this scheme in its tracks.
  • Sadly ID cards didn't stop 9/11
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is exactly the sort of thing we need to organise a resistance to these Orwellian schemes of our government. Peaceful objection, and when that fails we make ourselves bl**dy awkward.
    Gavin Harcourt, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • its good to see people with minds,
    the billions would be so much better spent on police , than blind use of poor tools.

    i do technology better than oration.

    just remember any ID badge you might get can always be micro-wave'd , 10 seconds should make it secure from anything , even working.
    P H Richardson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Government knows all about you anyway they don't NEED the ID card. Campaign for something more worthwhile like saving dying people rather than that the government will know where you live and what you look like - they know already. Get on with it and do something more useful
    Bert McManus, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will refuse to co-operate with an ID card and national database registration scheme whether or not 10,000 other people have also pledged to do so.

    In fact I will be arrested and excercise my right to silence before I will carry one, and will happily donate £10 to a defense fund.

    This loss of our basic freedoms and human rights has to stop - and it has to do so right now.
    Haydn Briggs, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Only government could come up with a solution to combat terrorism that will bother the terrorists little (eg. Madrid) yet wastes billions oppressing the entire population! Utterly useless. They should spend the money on the police & security services, and leave us alone.
    Stuart Coster, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'll sign this pledge, but I fear the arrogance of Government is now so supremely rabid that they'll crush resistance by abusive force of law. Just look what they've done to force through metrication.
    Cllr Chris Cooke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • At *10 it's much cheaper to protest than actually pay for an ID card !
  • Any ID card I receive will be directly returned to the Home Office with the attached note. "Not required I already know who I am."
    Toby Jackson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I had already decided that I was not going to carry yet another ID card, nor was I going to knowingly contribute to the creation or continuation of such a scheme.

    It's reassuring to know that I have instead started to pay my defence money.

    It looks like 2005 is becoming the year when people power is finally coming of age.
  • Happy to sign up. The ID card scheme will cost us billions more than the government claim and will never work. They have no idea what they are doing but are listenening to IT companies that sell relevant products and are licking their lips at the huge profits they will make.

    I don't want to pay huge ammounts in extra tax for an ID card I don't want, that won't work, that won't solve any of the problems they claim it will and that at the end of the day will just make some IT companies rich. Tony Blair hopes to go down in history as a great PM but instead he'll be remembered as our biggest failure.
    Dave Murray, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I hope this site doesn't use cookies
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't object to more rigorous ID per se, but this is not the right scheme - it's too expensive and too centralized, which means it will probably do more harm than good, and certainly be very poor use of resources.
    Wookey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • £10 is a lot cheaper than the £50 a head this is going to cost us if they try to bring it in. Pledge money well spent.
    Richard Bogle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This ID card scam owes as much to Bush as to Blair. It is likely to technically be compatible with the US one - the legislation in the US for id cards was hidden at the back of a bill to give benefits to troops returning from Iraq - hence no one there dared vote against it.
    Gary Wood, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Technical point: nobody will be prosecuted for not registering for an ID card - the £1000 and £2500 fines are "civil penalties" which can be imposed by the Secretary of State without going through the normal processes of trials etc. So the footnote to the pledge text probably needs changing
    Jonathan Monroe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Call it £100.
    Anthony Fisher, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The proposed ID system cannot achieve what its sponsors claim are its goals. It can only really be used for repression.
    Nick Shipman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Shouldn't it be called an IT card? IT as in totalITariansim.
    Louisa, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The ID card has all the hallmarks of wreck in progress. I'll pledge £10.
    azhar, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sadly I cannot be certain that I will be able afford the £10, otherwise I'd sign up. That said I will happily be amongst, if not the first to be arrested whilst peacefully protesting in defence of our right to privacy.

    I do this not solely for myself, but also for future generations who would have *fewer* rights and who would in essence ,be born on the "United Kingdom Prison Island".

    My father and my grandfather who both served in our armed forces are probably spinning in their respective graves at the very notion that such a system is being proposed.

    NOTE :
    I am not a historian, but in order to help support peacefull protest, perhaps someone with the relevant knowledge can pinpoint the "turning point" that followed World War II that led the the removal of the id system that was at that time in place. This may give us some starting points on how to combat the current proposal. (Perhaps even a "Groklaw" esqe knowlede pool with reference to not only the past, but also to our local laws, those of the Europe and any other International treaties that could either help or hinder such a protest ?)
    Matthew Snook, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have access to printing facilities and sticky paper etc, if anyone has any idea on the best placement for stickers for this pledge/NO2ID in general?
    Sam, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I was going to refuse to carry one anyway - the technology is not there, and it's possible it never will be, they won't stop terrorist attacks, and I don't need any more id or the government putting my details in any more insecure databases - but it's good to know there's something of a movement going on.

    If only 5 people do it I'll still put in my ten quid and stand my ground.
    David Hicks, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Liberty is the watchword".
    Ben Hurley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -- Bruce Schneier

    Does anyone trust government or the police not to abuse the powers this scheme would give them? I wouldn't even trust myself...
    Malcolm Farmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I spent several years supporting a small university ID card system, which included smartchips. The technology is unstandardised, unreliable and expensive. The justification for the project keeps changing (terrorism, health tourism, immigration, crime), and none of the reasons are sufficiently convincing given the sums of money involved.

    The ID card will be a large, public-sector IT project, with changing goalposts and unstandardised technology - it should be ringing alarm bells in anyone who has ever studied software engineering or worked on IT projects. Such a combination is very unlikely to deliver the required goals, or be on time, or keep within budget. On pragmatic grounds alone, I oppose the government's proposals.

    I will not register for an ID card.
    Rachel Coleman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This government and the faceless control freaks who inhabit every level of the administration has gone far too far a long time ago. None of the 5 cars I use is traceable to me for that reason. As an engineer I agree that microwave destruction is valid and unprovable. This could be defeated by sufficent warranty claims
    Richard Ceen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Visiting the USA where they fingerprint you to track your movements, and having any sort of passport, let alone a biometric one, were always voluntary. Despite the amount of ID I carry, and despite the amount of data on my personal habits and movements that is available via those, they too are voluntary.

    Mortgages, loans and credit cards are voluntary, and it is not illegal to not have them.

    Leaving my house without donning a disguise is voluntary, and it is not illegal to wear such a disguise.

    Having a driving licence is voluntary, and it is not illegal to not drive a car.

    But the proposal for an identity card is not just one tiny inconsequential step further along the road down which we have travelled, it is the crossing over the border into a land known as the Police State.

    THE DAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKE IT COMPULSORY FOR ME TO HAVE AN IDENTITY CARD JUST TO *BE*, IS THE DAY THAT THEY TURN ME INTO A CRIMINAL, FOR I WILL NOT COOPERATE.

    David Davis, the shadow Home Secretary said that ID cards should be introduced without delay if civil liberties and technical objections can be overcome.

    I wonder how he plans to overcome my objections? On civil liberties grounds I object absolutely to any form of compulsory ID card. On civil liberties grounds I object absolutely to the police having the power to stop me to check my identity.

    When the pilot tests of biometric scanning equipment begin, I would urge people not to be seduced by whatever promises are made of bureaucratic niceties such as fast track passport control, and not to volunteer for the trials.

    Malcolm Farmer makes an excellent point. There is not one technology from the humble kettle for steaming open envelopes, through lock-picking and bugging to sophisticated electronic eavesdropping and codebreaking that has not at some time been misused by the police, security services, and other organs of the state.

    We are about to enter a most appalling period of state monitoring and control, in which compulsory ID cards and extended police powers will be just the first aspects. It behoves all of us who cherish our freedom to resist as much as we can, and to make the journey into the new Dark Age one characterised by much kicking and screaming, not meek trudging.
    Mike Perry, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I work in IT, and from this perspective alone, is enough reason to cancel this idea!

    The ID card scheme is going to be very expensive (at least 2-3 times more than quoted), will probably not work as the government says it will, but more importantly, society is not yet ready to handle the implications of a government owning our identities...

    The idea of your ID being known is fairly easy to handle (i.e. the phone book). However, the ID card takes this concept to a new dimension. As individuals we need to be sure we can protect our information, it cannot be stolen or interferred with by anyone other than ourselves, plus the sharing of this information across government & non-government agencies must be enshrined in law. Does the £10Bn implementation cost cover this? I think not...

    Why have this card the? A reason given is prevention of Terrorism. Yes this is evil, yet humans have a track record of killing each other.. sadly this will continue long after I have departed this planet, I dont see providing an ID card will reduce significantly my chances of dying via Terrorism.. i would rather see the £10Bn used to relieve poverty, improve education and reduce the numbers of the disenchanted being sent into the terrorists arms...
    Chris Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am in the US and considering pledging to this fund too. I know we sure have our own damnned problems to work out, but, I mean, mandatory ID is total bull.
  • The ID card scheme is absolutely insane. Expensive, open to abuse, and technically impractical.

    Aside from the civil liberties issues which have been more than covered, no system is foolproof.

    Biometrics are a massive con. Aside from the fact that the readers are far from accurate and can be spoofed with ease, what happens when your identity is inevitably stolen?

    If someone steals your ATM pin, you change it. How do you change your iris scan? Well, you can do it precisely twice and both times its rather painful.

    WHEN your identity is stolen (and an ID card very nicely consolidates all id forms into one easily nickable/loosable/copyable object), you will never get it back... because of course, the system is foolproof. It can never go wrong.

    This is something that has been sold by slick marketing people and quangos with interests in the countless security contractors and is not something that is necessary or workable.

    Want to stop terrorists? Well, stop bombing their countries would be a good start.
  • Yeah right! The ID card is to combat terrorism. Firstly the card will not be issued to illegal immigrants or asylum seekers, so this group will have no inspection. The main reason for the card is to move towards and expand a Neo-Conservative one world government and to promote a big brother type totalitarian state in the UK (1984 - George Orwell). In future the population will be required to swipe/register the ID card before any transaction (financial/social etc.) can be completed. Thus tracking purchases and movements of every UK citizen, and building a mass database in order to allow the government to easily increase taxation and to squeeze every last penny from the enslaved workforce. People recognize the need for taxation, but when the revenue is used to conduct illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and to manipulate and tilt ecomomies and state politics the world over, those with some vision of reality will protest. Say no to the ID card and help to save the injured planet!
  • ID cards are the reversal of a social contract in place in this country for centuries. Unnecessary, unwanted, an outrageous assault on our dignity and liberty. I will refuse to register, and I will never, ever carry such a repugnant insult to my individuality.
    Andrew Weston, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's been said already on this coments page, but it is worth repeating:

    Public sector IT projects have an extremely poor record when it comes to actually producing the project deliverables. Almost without exception, they arrive enormously late, horribly over budget and never work in the way the project was described in the first place.

    Given that our government is planning to use this demented scheme to provide us with a single means of proving that we are who we say we are, I can't see anything other than insurmountable problems for the project.

    Without even taking into consideration the breach of our basic civil rights, the ID cards are a technically inept method of identity verification. No chance of the data becoming corrupt? Who's kidding who? I work in IT, have done for years, and even the most naive of system admins wouldn't claim that. What happens when your name is the one to be deleted by accident? How do you re-establish your identity then?

    I'll sign this pledge with pleasure.
    Alex Ferrie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you, and pledge my support.

    NO to ID cards - NO to state-sponsored terrorism.
  • Absolutely spot on.
  • Funnily enough, I already know who I am. And I can prove it if required to do so.

    If this system is so failproof, see what the bnp would do with this power first.

    idiots.
    Old Holborn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Why is it that whenever a person has been kidnapped in Iraq (or anywhere else), the government always says that it never gives in to terrorism? This move towards ID cards would never have started if it were not for terrorism. So, simple logic tells me that ID cards equals giving in to terrorism!
    Geoff Meaden, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The audit trail keeps a record of every access to your entry in the National Identity Register. Every single use of the card will end up in that register, and is freely inspected by various authorities. This audit trail is kept FOREVER (even after you die!). If you used your ID card to prove your age in a gay bar, in thirty years time when there's a BNP Government and there is the death penalty for being gay, they can trawl through this data and use it to round up suspects for processing.

    Yes, this scheme is most certainly poor democratic hygiene. The Gestapo would have jumped for joy to have had the British ID card scheme available to them.
    Ken Tindell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I exist by my right, not their permission
  • If we don't make a stand on this one a police state is just round the corner. Say no to all repressive legislation enacted in the name of the phoney war on terrorism.
    Nicola Graham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • SAY - CHIPS WITH EVERYTHING - NO WAY!
    Hazel Featherstone, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hi Folks,

    I have started a YAHOO GROUP if anyone is interested... get everyone together under one roof so to speak.
    You can access my group at :-

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NO_tracking/

    I dont want to see these I.D. cards introduced, and the thought of the other new technology: VeriChip terrifies me.
    LET`S FIGHT THIS THING TOGETHER.
  • There is a security expert in the US called Bruce Schneier. He is the author of numerous books about security and regarded as one of the most knowledgable people in the world regarding security. He has stated in his texts that ID cards can actually make us less secure, not more. If you want to know more http://www.schneier.com and search for ID cards, interesting stuff indeed.
    Geoff Hirst, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ok, i have been known to over react to things, but im sooo not this time! i watched 1984 again at the weekend ( ive got pmt, and wasnt quite depressed enough).lets just say, we're well on the way. i thought the west hated the whole soviet era vibe, why are they then policing our very existence?i also suspect the ids cards will smell of old man wee.
    erzsebet toth, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sorry, me again. I found this report undertaken by the London School of economics and political science. An assessment of the UK Identity Cards Bill and its implications.

    http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAn...

    You'll need adobe reader if you want to view it.
    Geoff Hirst, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't think it will be possible for me to avoid being dragged into the ID card scheme as it is currently planned - I have a full driving license and I move home fairly often, so I'll need to update it at some point. I'm presuming that's where I'll fall into the scheme, whether I like it or not. However, I will happily donate £10 to a legal defence fund for those who can and do manage to stay out of the database in protest.
    Denny, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've no particular objection to an ID card in principle, however this card is being marketed falsely as a tool against terrorism and complex crime. In addition the technologies used do not yet work reliably, the cost to businesses for scanners extortionate and the proposed 'database' a serious threat to our civil liberties. I will not accept such a scheme willingly.
    Jay, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I can see some benefit in an ID card which simply verifies your name, address, NI number and blood group. But I won't put up with it being a precondition to obtaining passports, licences or credit. And I will absolutely refuse to pay for one. Terrorism and crime prevention? Forget it - the baddies have always been smart enough to defeat new security measures and they always will be.
    David Bowie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • DON'T DO IT, DENNY!

    The very fact that you could think that you HAVE TO sign up to the card, when it hasn't even been passed yet, only goes to show that they have got some of us running scared already.

    Just stand firm and you will see . . . people can make monsters go away!
    .
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I hope we get enough people to do this properly - I'll send the web address to everyone I know!
    Jenny Nicholson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If we have to use ID cards, I want out of this country, or off this planet. Give me a new frontier quick, where freedom still rules.

    As many others have commented, every IT project the govt. attempts runs way over budget and is left with flaws any decent terrorist could exploit to great advantage. ID theft has been used entirely sucessfully-as the poor innocent victim locked up in Guatalamo bay (.sp?) could tell us all.

    Look at the mess made of child support. Or the huge panic over the millenium bug (lots of money made there for us techies). I don't want to be in hospital screaming with agony, and unable to get treatment for lack of a card that I will never carry. Lock me up or throw me out. I am not a number, I am a free (wo)man.
    Jenny Gould, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Arrest me now. I will never have a card that relies on me trusting a government that lies about the card scheme itself.

    Countries with ID cards trust their governments. Perhaps the UK gov't should learn this simple fact and work for the trust of the people, rather than treating everyone like criminals. It doesn't work with DRM and it will never work with our basic freedoms.
  • This will be an idiotic, authoritarian, dangerous and costly failure. We all have something to hide - our privacy and freedom from those of a persuasion who would take it from us.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No Poll Tax - No ID Card
    Nicos Souleles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Even at the lowest so far costed price of £93, that's more than the amount most people on income support get a week.

    This government is determined to bring in more and more laws that limit our human rights and that class every single one of us as criminals. They led us to war in Iraq on the basis of deceptions, and they will do the same on this, as they have shown with the bogus Europe passport/visa argument.
    Robert Geen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already have a National Insurance Number, Passport, Bank Card, Drivers License, mobile phone, Various shop cards, an IP address, and numerous other things that allow others to track who I am and what I do. What's the big deal about a national ID card? Surely it makes things easier if I have a way to prove who I am? For a start, it offers me protection from people trying to steal my ID, and will remove the need for the police to detain me if I ever have a brush with the law..
    Mikey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • UK citizens are already tracked 24/7 whnever they travel - car number plate camera recongition systems UK wide now, under the pose as cutting crime, but allow the state to track your every journey. I wonder if we will be forced to have satellite black boxes installed in or cars too in ten years time - they say we will. So they will bill you by the mile then and track us all 24/7 just like slaves/scum criminals.

    It was not Tony Blair is consitently PROMISED NEVER to introduce ID cards both before 9/11 and after? It most cetainly was! Because of the huge opposition faced from UK citizens.

    The only time we had ID cards was during WW2 and they were scrapped shortly after because people felt it invaded their privacy, it seems the government valued such privacy and freedom at that period of time.
    Aaron, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My identity is not and never will be the ‘property’ of the state, I will refuse to register and refuse to pay the fines and Mr. Bliar if you want a H-block style prison protest against ID cards I will gladly give you one...
    Richard Alonzo, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Stick your I.D. card up your arse!
    Owen Childs, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I lived in a free society and all I got was this lousy ID card.
    Anthony Fisher, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm sick and tired of seeing obviously loaded questions used to justify this scheme which cannot possibly solve any of the issues it is meant to address. In fact, given the woeful track record of government IT contracts and the contractors running them, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the very data the card is meant to protect finding its way into the wrong hands. That there will be massive budget overruns goes without saying, of course.

    If the government is so sure that the public is behind their ID cards, then why not hold a referendum to decide the matter? Then again, with the apathetic attitude our politicians instill in the populace, I suspect we'll have a poorer turnout than the recent Italian vote on fertility controls. Perhaps we just ought to have a "None of the above" option on our next set of polling cards....
    Andy Blanchard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I say to 'Bert McManus at 12:21, Monday' that if the government already knows all this information about us and they don't 'NEED' ID cards, then why the hell are they going ahead with it ?
    Power to the people.
    Gareth Richardson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well done Phil.

    BTW - "Were this many of us refuse..." - surely "If this many of us refuse ..."?

    DJ
  • Death to the New World Order. Long live liberty! Realise, my friends, that if you do not rise up and fight then you will soon be living in a global fascist state. Freedom is EXCEPTIONAL - it is not the rule of history. Tyranny, despotism, oppression, these evils are the stuff of history. Look back: 99/100ths of human history has been a vicious, unmitigated bloodbath, the weak being sacrificed ruthlessly for the vile gains of power.

    If we lose freedom now, if we let that rare gem fall from our hands, we may never recover liberty, may never be free again. All governments, as a rule, seek to increase the horizons of their powers. Every government in history has sought to dominate, to conquer, to control. Every government - however benign it may seem - is in a conspiracy against its people. ID cards should be seen within a wider context of power naturally tending toward its own expansion.

    If we give up our freedom, if we lie die and allow power to crush us, we deserve the Orwellian hell, the fascist nighttmare, that we will, without question, get.
    Daniel Ryder, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am hugely distrustful of the National Id card scheme - a centralised database is worrying - it's a matter of time until it gets rooted and falls into the wrong hands...

    Let's make our voices heard people.
  • If the ID cards do infact go ahead its only an endless battle, how far must they go to prevent crime/terroist/immagrants etc. rfid tagging, gps tracking, whats next??

    The worrying thing is America and the UK are starting to look quite similar to a Nazi state (that or a cheesy futuristic sci-fi movie i.e equilibrium).
    Steve, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The literary work of 1984 from George Orwell was titled a few decades prematurely if you ask me.

    It's nice to see the amount of people in our country that actually realise when proposed schemes like this seriously infringe on our freedoms and privacy.

    It's easy for some to label these people as over-reacting, but these issues are real, and they are present. We've all heard the old saying "Power corrupts, and absoloute power corrupts absoloutely", well schemes like this only give more and more power to a governmental system becoming increasingly corrupted by it. If something isn't done about the situation, I have little doubt it will snowball and eventually reach a stage where nothing aside from a bloody revoloution will change anything.

    When we stop protesting and opposing potentially dangerous schemes such as this, we have already lost the battle for, and arguably no longer deserve our freedom.

    As a side note, the thing that makes me sick about the whole situation as a whole comes from discussing the events surrounding "9/11" at the time. All the worst things I heard from people during these discussions about how it would affect both the US and it's allies' citizens are starting to ring true. The media hyping the whole terrorism threat up to the point of insanity, and governments using it as spin to sneak in new laws and amendments which ultimately are serving no purpose than to erode the very things we, as a democratic and free nation, are supposed to stand for. When a governmental body starts to use fear (in this case: of terrorist attacks) as it's primary tactic for convincing the population of it's need to have more power, you know there is a serious problem brewing.

    The National ID card system is a huge waste of our money that could be so much better spent in a myriad of public service areas, rather than be funelled into private sector interests. It will quite clearly be open to abuse and technical issues which will cause many problems, and most of all, we just DO NOT NEED IT.

    I urge everyone who reads this to pledge towards this cause, or at the very least seriously consider this issue, read into it more, discuss it with your friends down the pub, whatever it takes to keep this in the public spotlight. Contrary to some beliefs, we do have the power to change things, we just have to be motivated to do so.
  • Vehicle tracking satellites, ID Cards, Increased Police powers to stop and detain. Whatever happened to Innocent till proven guilty? They are turning this country in to one big open off shore prison. NO2ID, No to the erosion of free thinking and freedom of speech
    Mariya Stylianos, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I would rather renounce my citizenship and take that of another state than submit to the obligation to apply for the right to live in my own country and to carry a card to proove my right to walk around my home town.
    My identity belongs to me alone, and does not have anything to do with any bit of plastic.
    Martin Lee, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Beneath the list of signatories is a list of other pledges we have signed.
    How do they tell?
    How did we authorise that?
    You have to be so careful these days.
    Clive, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The government have not satisfactorily defined what the benefits of the ID scheme are. The justification changes regularly as old ideas become discredited. There is no honest cost-benefit analysis in existence. This alone, given the expense we will all bear makes me think that this is a project which must be opposed.

    Even if the benefits were fully costed and demonstrably useful in improving our security and reducing public sector costs, little thought has been given to protecting citizen privacy.

    This has not been an issue before, as government did not have the facilty to "join up" all the information held by various departments about the citizen. With this scheme, they will, but I see no fundamental controls being placed on how the information will be used or abused. The sad thing is, if we were to be convinced of the need for such a card, it would be possible to construct the system with cryptographic safeguards that don't rely on a "like, you know, trust us, we're the good guys, honest..." mentality. And even if you were, what about the next lot?

    History shows that liberties are easily removed by the judicious application of a little fear, and hard to win back.
    matt palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Anyone worried about this and other state surveillance issues and where they might take us should read this excellent report by Statewatch UK and the American Civil Liberties Union:

    www.statewatch.org/news/2005/apr/icams-r...
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I believe the REAL reasons for the government's enthusiasm for ID cards are:

    They will be able to drastically cut the number of jobs in the public sector by eliminating most of the existing paperwork.

    In an effort to improve crime detection, the police will be given access to the fingerprints or DNA profiles of the entire adult population, so that they can compare them with those found at crime scenes.

    According to the government’s own figures, 1 in 100,000 fingerprint checks will result in a false match with an innocent person.

    With a projected ID database size of 50 Million people, a significant number of innocent people will be faced with criminal investigation.
    Brian drury, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards do not prevent terrorism. Spain has introduced ID cards, in fact the Madrid train bombers all carried ID cards. Didn't stop any bombs.

    It is just a way to get taxpayers money ploughed into Orwellian schemes. They are watching you and you WILL like it?

    We must end the takeover. I don't want to be citizen number xxxxxx and have my retina scans and biometric data saved on a computer like I was the terrorist!!

    The so called terror attacks are usually arranged by the home government to get us to vote a certain way and pay them more tax to save us from the bad guys. It is bullshit. Not good.
    Wes Ford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Its worth noting that it has never been extensively proven that biometrics are as unique/accurate as we are led to believe. Following various separate experiments around the world in the 20th century, a study was undertaken in the 70's funded by the US Pentagon who had a vested interest in the desired outcome. They had something like a hundred or so people in the test, and came to the HYPOTHETICAL conclusion that fingerprints etc are unique. If you expand this to 60 million people, even assuming that the technology itself is 100% accurate (I'm an IT guy - believe me the tech angle alone is comicly flawed) even a 1 in a million error margin would severely compromise the whole thing. Having said that, we would never know about these errors, since this info would be classified to protect the government and the entire industry which would spring up around the ID card system. Pledge well and truly signed.
    Dan Flower, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You are not going to have to carry your ID card with you at all times. So the police will still have to ask drunks and "gangs of asians" what their names are, and then ask them to come in with their id cards in the near future. So that's a moot point.

    My main probem is given the complete and utter incompetence shown by governmental departments in implementing large scale IT projects, I can quite confidently predict that this Orwellian national database of personal information will overun in both time and cost and I resent having to pay for something I neither need nor want.

    And lastly, I might buy some food, clothes for my kid, numerous other things "I" would like to spend "my" money on.
    Mark Seddon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Good on you.

    The whole point of this Governments desire to introduce an ID card scheme, has nothing to do about better access to the NHS, or to control immigration, it is all about the database of information behind the card scheme.

    Big brother truly is watching over us.
    Sandy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I seem to be alone in seeing the irony of a privacy advocacy site collecting names and email addresses.
    withheld, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The September 11th hijackers all carried valid identification. If the government genuinely wish to combat terrorism rather than generating fear and destroying our civil liberties, they would invest in intelligence and investigation, rather than throwing away public money on this monumentally stupid programme.

    A very small number of refusals can effictively cripple this scheme. Mandatory ID cards can only be implemented if we allow it. Please have the courage to stand up for your civil liberties and say "no!"
    Owen Duffy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re 'withheld at 15:09 - no irony at all - it's about freedom to divulge our details on a list like this - our choice, instead of someone else's who takes no responsibility for the effects of their decision concerning someone else.
    Alisdair Laird, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Doesn't *anyone* in Government think about cost/benefit ratios? This scheme will cost billions.

    No one, as far as I can tell, has yet come up with a *single* study or well-argued reason to have the cards. What problem will they solve or ameliorate?

    I object to being fingerprinted like a criminal. But I object far more to how much of the public's money this is going to waste.
  • ID Cards will do nothing to stop terrorism. But will do everything to help a police state.
    S Manji, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I love these ridiculous knee-jerk reactions people have to any form of ID card or government surveillance. This is in no way going to create an Orwellian / Totalitarian society.
    If the technology doesn’t work then, ok, don’t do it. If it does however, and it brings about a safer place to live, then bring it on.
    Don’t just rebel because you think your rights are being taken away, they’re really not. Stop listening to these right wing nutters who believe they’re being followed by the FBI.
    Kevin Shussett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re the comment at 15.09, commenter's name withheld: PledgeBank is not a "privacy advocacy site" (which is not to make any comment about its own privacy policy), although the opposition to ID cards behind this particular pledge might well arise in part from concerns about privacy.
    Helen Wright, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Kevin Shussett's comment:

    There are a few small problems with your argument. If the technology doesn't end up working, that won't prevent our government from trying and wasting vast amounts of our money. Even if the technology does work, the overall system won't necessarily make us any safer, or save any money, and may in fact make us less secure. Bruce Schneier covers quite a lot of this ground on his site:

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/20...
    http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0112...

    The biggest problem I can see is one which would affect *any* large project. The total costs are not clear, the drivers are not clear, the benefits are not clear, the timescale is not clear, and even within this mass of un-clarity, it is not clear whether the proposed "solution" (to the undefined problems) will even work.

    If it was your money at stake, would you lend them £6 billion to go ahead... wait - it *is* your money at stake...
    matt palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "I think the Government's proposed identity card scheme has been unfairly represented..."

    Oh, sorry, where was I? The cost of this illiberal and wasteful abomination, should it ever be introduced by 'New' Labour will rocket. Ordinary men and women, people of a different religion of colour, religion or background will almost certainly suffer. People will suffer horribly because of a seemingly minor mistake in the 'system'.

    If you want to pay to give your right to 'exist' away to an over-bearing Government, fine. But please don't make the rest of us do it too.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Matt Palmer @16:12

    To be honest, I agree with most of what Mr Schneier says in those links. My point may have been a little aggressive, sorry.
    I have been following this topic closely recently, and if it came down to a referendum I would probably vote against ID cards. I just get very wound up by this silly romanticised idea that if we let this happen, the next step will be the founding of the Ministry of Truth.
    Kevin Shussett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can you remember what it was like before? I made a wager with my friend that if I ever carried an ID card I would give him 1 million pounds, can we really have come so far in a few short years that to make this bet now would seem ridiculous. I pledge £10 gladly if it helps me save £999990
    I cannot believe that we are even contemplating this.
    Graeme Paterson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Kevin Shussett:

    I think it's important to avoid knee-jerk reactions too - I don't think you were being agressive on this. I just wanted to clarify that whether the technology works or not is not the only issue; the technology could work and still not do us any good!

    On a civil liberties note, whatever we do, we will be foolish indeed to assume that the only people we will ever need protection from live outside our borders, or will never inhabit our own corridors of power.

    This is not an argument against ID cards per se, but a warning that we must consider security from all angles, not merely what seems expedient to counter the fashionable threat of the day.
    matt palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have no objection to a general, non-mandatory ID card, and would quite possibly buy one if they existed. I do have an objection to the system that will be implemented currently; one which will allow companies to look up individual's pasts, credit card details, etc. The amount of information they want to collect for everyone, and without the provisions in the Data Protection Act (handily modified last time it was changed so the government is exempt from various parts of it), makes the system flawed. The biometric information system has also been shown many times in the past to be an unreliable form of ID.

    Did anyone see the "Yes Minister" episode where they were talking about a national identity database? Essentially the same arguments and topics presented there apply now - except that was a satirical TV show, and this is reality. Sad.

    I will not register for an ID card.
    Peter Wilkinson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Peter Wilkinson:

    I saw that "Yes Minister" and loved it. Surprisingly topical for a program that must be over 20 years old. I watch them whenever I can and chuckle.

    It is quality satire - it's funny, because it's true (and yes, I do have several years of experience of working for the civil service).
    matt palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If you know anyone with 'nothing to hide' don't give them your phone number or ever agree to go for a drink with them. Watch paint dry it will be more exciting.

    Mind you, if someone's got nothing to hide, what's to say the government actually agrees with them?
  • With the government increasingly making 'on the spot' fines more and more the norm won't it be easier for the authorities, (police, council officials, binmen/road sweepers, parking wardens ect.), to just take your ID card and swipe it automatically taking the money out of your bank account. Which will happen, if they get thier way and combine every little scrap of information about you on this damn thing. Bypassing the courts and judicial system all together(Which is already happening). And they say it's not a police state, don't make me laugh.
    Darren Newton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • How will they identify folk who don't get an identity card?

    If you want privacy why put your identity here on a website - doh!
    Anonymous, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Home Office slogan is "Building a safe, just, and tolerant society".
    Well how about building a safe, just and tolerant government first?
    I feel suffocated by this governments fetish for controlling peoples lives.
    As cliched as it sounds, ID cards are a big step towards an Orwellian police state. All arguments for ID cards have been blown out of the water. Notice how the government subtley changed it from 'protection against terrorist attack' to 'preventing identity fraud'.
    How long before we're all tracked by satellite from the moment we leave our houses? Not long. Be afraid. Or stand up to these Stalinists...
    Adam Burns, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Protests like this are just what we need so that the government cannot continue to claim that there is no opposition to ID cards that doesn't come from 'conmen and fraudsters'.
  • RE Anonymous It is our FREE WILL! Were not forced to do this...err does it list our health records on here? does it list our name and address on here? does it list our date of birth on here? were we forced to do this?

    NO to all of those.

    You IDIOT!

    You are however willing to give in to a Tyrannical Totalitarian Police State Powered by Big Brother?!
    RE Anonymous, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will refuse to register for an ID card
    I will not donate money to aid any legal defence as the whole criminal/cival law is the part of the problem.
    A good old Civil Uprising is needed as the goverment is subserving not serving us the people we are the problem now.
    We need more than law and luck.
    .
  • I work in a Govt. Dept. trying to keep the IT system functioning, so I know that the hiving off of development & implementation of state IT has been a total disaster. With the size of this project, it would be disaster *cubed* - massively over-budget and ridiculously under-resourced.

    Besides which, it is more than time for us to remind the state that *it* belongs to *us*, and not the other way around.
    Nigel Stapley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I would also like to remind people of the statement made by a senior police constable a year ago:

    "I would like a compulsory DNA database to be set up within the next ten years."

    we have to stop this madness. humane humanity forever.
    Jam, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • With Blair's majority reduced at the last election I just hope we have more chance of scuppering this madness than we had with the invasion of Iraq.

    If we fail, and with the vehicle tracking also planned, this country, which once would have been the first to oppose oppression and which was for so long a bastion of freedom and justice, would not be a country worth living in.
    Colin Morris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We do NOT NEED THIS, the system is designed to choke people more and more, WE CAN SAY NO MORE !
    Maritza Barrow, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Enough Is Enough, I will not sow the seeds of Oppression forced on the unwilling.
    Tristan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It is crucial that we resist this, we at Unity Injustice are still fighting Hodge since her move to the DWP as she is there to seize the Child Benefit Database as Blunkett is there to seize the NI database, political analysts across the world are shouting warnings at us, History teaches and crucial act by crucial act, Blair is following the downward path that Hitler followed in the last century.

    Have a look at what I think of Blairs government here...

    http://blairs-bunco-booth.freelinuxhost....

    If the chilling fact that Blair has at least FOUR Ministers whom in the eighties praised, encouraged and invited the Soviets to INVADE Britain doesn't warn you, or the fact that the forerunner company in ID tenders is owned by George Bush Snr, what will?

    Ian Watson
    Founder
    Unity Injustice
  • It’s apparent that ID-Cards and, more importantly, the National Identity Database will help rather than hinder terrorists and identify fraudsters.

    The British government know this, so why are they pushing ahead with this multi-billion Pound unpopular project; what is their hidden agenda?

    I suggest that there are two key (unmentioned) drivers:

    Firstly, the Treasury. Once the newly merged Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise can compare people’s bank records against their tax returns, they will be able to do all sorts of previously unimaginable nastiness. Imagine they see that you use a lot of cash, their automatic assumption could be that you buy and sell in the black market (or at least eBay) and should be taxed accordingly, and fined for not declaring your eBay sales in the first place.

    Second, the Americans. The US government has requested that the British utilise the same ID chips and technology as them … for compatibility.
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • They can take their ID card and shove it up their arses.
    Stanley Yelnats, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hotmail users, for some reason hotmail puts the pledge email reply into JUNK MAIL. SO check your hotmail junk folder if you dont get the confirmation reply.

    F**K ID CARDS!

    Al
    al, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ...and the process of subordinating ourselves to the will of a foreign power continues. if i.d. cards are successfully implemented, it should tie-in nicely with the recently signed extradition treaty blunkett so obligingly committed every uk citizen to whilst still home secretary.

    £10? have £20!
    Jack Swan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Government has said that 85% of the British public are in favour of ID cards. This is reassuring because it means that 15% of us have brains.
  • When I see those statistics, I think they say people are in favour of something to reduce credit card fraud or deal with other problems that this ID card proposal won't address; I don't think people actually actively want ID cards *as such*.
  • I don't care what you people say as I will just criminalise you, arrest you and obtain your fingerprints that way.

    I have unlimited powers in the interests of national security.
    Secretary of State, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • NOTICE:

    Everyone who pledges here, or posts comments here, or visits this web-site has now been flagged as a potential terrorist in our databases. You have no right to correct change this.

    Expect to be stopped for interogation at all U.S. borders.

    If you make a fuss, we'll ask Tony Blair to extradite you to us.
  • We'll see how unlimited your powers are after enough people convince their MPs to enact a vote of no confidence, Mr. Secretary of State. Elections are not the only times a political party may be elected. Many a ruling party has found this out to their cost - I'm surprised that politicians don't study history more. It's a pity, really; if they did, they'd save the rest of us an awful lot of trouble re-living it every time they screwed up (again).

    If, in addition to pledging a tenner, everyone here also approaches their Labour MP and says "I'm not bloody standing for this - and if you don't kill this idea right now, I'll make sure you never get elected again", they'll prick their ears up and take notice. Especially if you approach MPs of the other political parties and ask for a vote of no confidence against Labour. Few will argue that it's against their interests!

    If you don't take action to defend your privacy, you *will* lose it. Whining on a forum like this feels good, but you will never achieve anything if you don't do anything else. Witness the hue and cry over petrol tax increases - after a couple of weeks, the hue and cry died down and the rises went through without any more fuss. We lost because we didn't fight for ourselves. The French know how to fight - they might be complete and utter pansies on the battlefield, but you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of them in a civil dispute! They got a referendum because they fought for it - not because Jaques Chirac gave them one out of the goodness of his own heart!

    Freedom is only won by those who care enough about it to win it back - and if you're not willing to fight and actually lay down your lives for it, then you don't deserve it. Sorry, but it's really as simple as that. Freedom is worth a lot because it comes at a great price - if you aren't prepared to pay that price from time to time, you don't deserve to be free. Wars were won by previous generations to protect us against tyranny - and they won our freedom, for a while. They paid the price, too. Now a new war has started - and, like it or not, your freedom is already on the line. The question is whether you're willing to take up the mantle of responsibility and fight for it - or, just whine and hope it'll all turn out for the best?

    I'm going to have a few sharp words with my MP - hopefully, I'll meet some of you doing the same thing.
    Name withheld, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • as the song goes, "guns don't kill people, rappa's do"... In ma d'base it say you not supposed ta shoot me, or was that wot it sayz in youz machine? no, now it says *I'm* the gansta', hell, just shoot me now.
    rappa, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Interesting civil liberties note: This pledge is blocked by Netsweeper, who seem to have an odd idea of what is and is not a "match making site". This means that several hundred thousand schoolkids and students in the London area won't be able to sign up from school, since Netsweeper is the default net-nanny software on the London Grid for Learning.

    This isn't the first time I've noticed them blocking civil liberties sites; for example, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which was blocked as a hacking site.

    Wonder what genius thought that one up...
    Marcus Rowland, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is about protecting standards of liberty for our children. If ID cards become law the next generation will know no different and think they are normal. Who is to say what the next increment of State intrusion will be then.
    Paul Howard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We are the only country in Europe that dont have ID cards lets keep it that way.
    Shaun MacFarlane, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Not quite true. The Danes and Irish don't have them. The Dutch are pretty uneasy about the new ID requirements imposed by their government at the beginning of this year.

    But Britain has an international reputation for freedom dating from the era of Empire. Let's not be afraid to be "old-fashioned", in this respect at least.
  • If you want an idea as to the kind of country you'll eventually be living in if you fail to stop schemes like this one, just look at China. They didn't fight for their freedom, so they never got it. They're not even allowed to protest openly or get any news feeds other than those "approved" by their government, let alone go about their business in private. Will they break their chains of oppression? Probably not - they've been living under them for so long, they could be forgiven for thinking that their lifestyle is completely normal.

    The US and UK governments seem to be heading toward the Chinese line of thinking: If you pose a threat to the government, that's terrorism. If you campaign for and against matters important to you, that's terrorism. If you try to make the government look bad in any way, you're a terrorist - or you want more transparent democracy (hell, or any democracy at all), then you're committing treason. In fact, you're all criminals - and you'd better be grateful for every second you aren't spending inside a government-funded gulag, because we'll get you. And soon...
    Name withheld, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No country, as far as I'm aware, keeps a central Database of all its citizens. Germany did in the 1930s and we all know what happened there! Do we really want the government to have the ability as the Nazis did to sort us into various categories and then exterminate the people they don’t approve of?
    Jan Berry, Chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales, wants the carrying of ID cards made compulsory. So does this then also become an Internal Passport? When did we as free citizens need such a thing?
    Derek Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'd like an ID card to replace my passport please. Where can I get one?
    Mike, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sweden has a database of all its citizens. You are registered and given an ID number at birth, that you then use throughout your life as ID.
    Once you're used to the efficiency and benefits of the system, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.
    Swede, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just because they have one thing in one country doesn't mean we should have it here.

    They cut the hands of people in Saudi Arabia, should we bring it in here? They have mass censorship of the Internet in the People's Republic of China, should we bring that to Britain too?

    I can perfectly understand having a passport for travelling from state to state. I should not have to justify myself to my own Government when just going about minding my own business.

    I just can't understand why anyone who could dare call themselves a democrat would want this scheme, with the vast amount of information it will demand from innocent British Citizens.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Mr Brookfield, it sounds as if you are a xenophobe with a fear of progress. Opposing the accumulation of biometric data, or the fact that you'd have to carry it with you within the UK is one thing, but campaigning against convenience is a bit silly. I call myself a democrat, but my passport gets tatty if I have to carry it around in my pocket. A card would be ideal.
    Mike, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have no fear of foreigners! How dare you suggest that!

    I am suggesting each idea should be weighed up on its merits.

    I'm sure the NIR will bring one or two minor benefits but the arguments against are so overwhelming that I'm amazed this is even being considered.

    I wouldn't mind a strictly voluntary, non-technological identity card for access to some public services but this is not what is being offered at all.

    In effect what this increasingly paranoid Government wants to do is this: they want to make you pay to lease your own identity back. For those who believe in liberty, this is deeply frightening
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Mike,
    Do you work for a major IT company? As far as I can tell, they and the government are the biggest fans of ID and the database state. Is there another groups of people I overlooked?
    Guy Taylor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Guy,
    I don't work for an IT company, but I travel across a border every day. If I had a card in my wallet, that would be one less thing to worry about forgetting when I get up and go to work. You know the trouble you can get in for crossing a border without a passport/ID card?
    Mike, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I really object to ID cards in principle, but even on a practical level I am astonished that the 'nothing to hide' camp cannot see major flaws in the idea. Having moved to a different part of the country, I was a little worried that the Inland Revenue could not find any records on me by my (unique) NI number and that they needed my old address. Security recommendations for press conferences during the election campain included having the height recorded for people attending since that's quite hard to fake. Some baby steps towards security, like the simplicity of having your height on your passport, might be a more judicious use of tax payers money. Perhaps the government could concentrate on having systems in place that were sensible in other areas before trying to link them all together.

    Also, I'm a little confused about something and people here will no doubt know the answer - if the ID card needs all our details on it, if you move do you need to get a new one (and pay for it!) to have a current address listed? I'm just wondering on the implications for short-term contract workers who move around (and students for that matter!).......
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No, you pay to have your address changed.

    Failure to do so? That'll be a grand, please.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've been at 4 addresses in the last 5 years...... ouch!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Everywhere you've ever lived will have to be recorded too. Faliure to do so = another large fine.

    The picture's all coming together quite nicely, isn't it?
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can we get the originator to alter the pledge to include 'Writing to your MP' as well? That might help stimy the actual vote...?
    Ian Simons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The ID-Cards per se are a classic red herring; it's the N.I.R. database and the arbitrary powers of the Home Secretary to require to third party to provide their data (e.g. banks) that are the real issues.

    You don't see the government surveying people about the databases do you? It's always questions about innocuous cards, not “do you approve of the government storing data on every aspect of your life in a central database that you can not review?”

    This is typical Blairite smoke and mirrors, they have intentionally played all the media discussion and most of the debate into a discussion about CARDS rather than the centralised state DATABASE of Britain’s citizens, and the ability of the state to spy on them like nowhere else and like never before, and the ability to share the database with foreign governments, and the power of the Home Secretary to change whatever he likes with no parliamentary review or approval.
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I went to Vietnam a few years ago and the police go round every hostel/hotel to collect forms signed by visitors with their passport numbers, all to keep a little file on everyone who visits the country with where they went and when. The idea of keeping track of UK citizens in a similar manner is scary - what type of government are we modelling ourselves on?!?!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As Elvis Costello once put it:
    "They say you'd better listen to the voice of reason.
    But they don't give you any choice, 'cos they they think that it's treason."
    Mike Jackson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Who the hell is this Mike? I quote "My passport gets tatty if I have to carry it around in my pocket." Well that’s a logical well thought out argument in support of ID cards. Do me a favour Mike, your not even willing to put your full name along with your comment. You are willing however to sign up to an ID card which you will have no control over who in authority looks at your details. Please go out and buy yourself a shiny new passport holder for a couple of quid and stop posting nonsense.

    "WE BELONG TO SOCIETY AND NOT TO THE GOVERNMENT"
    john woolfenden, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hassle your MPs about this ridiculous bill too at: www.writetothem.com
    John Foster-Hill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I.D. cards?...er don't think so Mr Blair.I want to be micro-chipped and bar coded instead.(oh and chained to the floor of a concentration camp)
    F**K YOU BLAIR!!!!

    (er...oh my....was that comment treason?)
    Stephen (freewill@blueyonder.co.uk), 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Cheers Mr Foster-Hill for that E address. Lets give it to them straight!
    Stephen (freewill@blueyonder.co.uk), 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I didn't have to carry a fingerprinted ID when I was working in Japan -- the government there abolished the fingerprinting requirement several years ago. Why, then, should I have to carry a fingerprinted ID card to walk down the streets of my own damn country?
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Aren't the Japanese having their own fight with authoritarian Government lunacy? I hear 'ID cards' are planned there too.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This looks like turning out the same way as the Australian ID card fiasco: people think its a good idea until they find out the cost, both in money and harassment by petty officials.
    So, everyone, if anyone tells you cards are a good idea, tell them about the latest cost estimate (rising all the time), remind them of the long list of government's failed IT schemes, how it will give police carte blanche to arbitrarily harass suspicious persons (i.e. young, or with brown skin), and how they will have to attend (or be fined) for rescanning every few years.

    And ask them why those who know nothing about computers, and are proud of their ignorance, like the Labour front bench, are so enthusiastic about this database, while genuine database system and security experts think it's a financial and technical disaster waiting to happen. Even the government's head of IT doesn't think it can be made to work: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/19/...
    Malcolm Farmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Indeed. Initially support is wide and weak. People find out a few more details, some switch sides, people find out even more details, people who aren't too bothered go against, the people who didn't want one go even more against, the people who were originally in favour become neutral. Early loyalists will just melt away as the idea becomes increasingly unpopular.

    Just what happened with the failed 'Australia card' idea, then?
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Initially, when the public knew nothing about it, opinion was something like 70% in favour. Once this ignorance was rectified, and people found how much the magic crime-preventing pixy-dust on every card would cost, it went to 80% against. Sorry for the long URL, but it has useful information:
    http://www.privacyinternational.org/arti...

    People who think this is a good idea fall into four main categories: IT ignorant politicians, IT ignorant policemen, IT salesmen, and ignorant public. Nothing can be done about the first three categories. But the last group can be educated.
    Malcolm Farmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are morally neutral. I do not fear them as you all do. It is the integrity of those in control, about which I am concerned.
    chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • chris at 14:40 - this is such a fine distinction it really isn't worth worrying about - of course it's those 'in control' we are all concerned about. The NIR/ID card are merely convenient and tangible icons.
    Alisdair Laird, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What happens when the database crashes, will it be “Sorry you can’t leave/enter the country, can’t draw your pension/disability allowance/unemployment benefit, we can’t treat you in hospital because the computer has crashed and we can’t check if you are entitled to the service.” Or will it be “We can’t offer you employment because we are unable to check your ID card, you may be an illegal immigrant and we have to do the Immigration Services work for them.”

    For this dubious privilege we are expected to fork out £85 to obtain this bit of plastic or face a £2500 fine, and we have to let the Home Secretary know every time we move house, or face a £1000 fine. We won’t have a choice as it won’t be a criminal offence but a civil one so the Government will employ the new powers it has awarded itself by having the fines deducted from your pay.
    Derek Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What a lot of bollocks that ID cards are 'morally neutral'. They are the thin edge of the wedge, they are all about control, the dream of every single dictator, Hitler had them, Stalin loved them. Morally neutral is bollocks. They are the ultimate control device. There is nothing neutral about them, nothing at all.
    Nicos Souleles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Why not just install radio chips in our bloody heads? This government's lust for power and total surveillance of its citizens is staggering.

    "We must REMOVE all your freedom to protect your freedom!"

    Idiots, and dangerous idiots to boot,
    love and kisses,
    Jyoti
  • ID cards will stop torrorists will they? Does the government not think that, if these people are willing to kill us ... they might just not care whether a law says they ought to have a card?
    Fight The Power!
    Jon McCathy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We're heading towards a 'Nanny state', with this and the GPS system proposed for our cars, what's next?!! GPS chips under the skin? Don't laugh, I wouldn't put anything past Labour.........

    Why on earth did people let Labour stay in power last time, are people really that stupid?
    Nick Jennings, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "its a swindle" as someone once said... they will probably bring this in with some incentive, like you can't buy booze without one, or you get a free lapdance or something! haha, well that might actually work! i should sell them that idea! I will be actually surprised if anyone at all signs up 4 any crappy card scheme. even my mum. I suppose time will tell if people are too brainwashed to not have noticed the problem-reaction-solution con trick these people are trying to pull.
  • oh aye.
  • Does not matter who gets in power - they are all puppets. Most people should have realised this already by now, but most are conditioned by the state from the way they think to the way they act, not one vote counts for anything.

    The only way people will realise what is really going on is to restructure their way of thinking and of course Research has to be done.

    Are you willing to fight for your Freedom?

    GPS for your own good

    Pay As You Go Driving....it is for your own good you become reduced to a number...

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/jun...
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This proposed Identity Card system is not about preventing terrorism, and it's not even about identity. It's about requiring individual British citizens to get government permission for purchases, travelling, banking, medical care, renting or buying housing, attending school or college, and even getting a job.
    What's lurking behind this new proposal is a computer, which is tied into a giant national database, administered by government officials, which could be subject to error and abuse. Government busybodies would have access to our entire life history: our travels, our money, our medical history, family, business and our school records etc. Furthermore, this information would become available to banks, lending agencies, credit card companies, shops, car dealers, colleges and, of course, all law enforcement agencies (for a small fee of course!).
    John Hutchinson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If i want to use an ID for any reason (not often) I will carry my driving licence or passport. I WILL NOT allow a tyrannical and totalitarian government DEMAND that I have some biometric prototype mark of the beast, Our governments by definition (in the western societies at least) are meant to be the benign servant of society not its dictatorial legion (they are as crooked and corrupted as any other regime on the planet and often fund those same regimes they use as examples of horrifying rule). Refuse to allow yourself to be a cog in the machine that is the unfolding NEW WORLD ORDER. its time to rise and show our disgust at the contemptuous actions of those who do not care about us and see its own people as cash cows to line there greedy pockets via ever increasing taxes and enforce such actions with orwellian technologies. say it loud "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" before they end up implanting MICROCHIPS. Sounded crazy to most a few years ago but a little pause for thought and its seems the obvious outcome to control us and ENSLAVE us. the 10 seconds in a microwave remark is a top idea, Id rather be a dissident who is forced into abject poverrty (or judging by the direction of our society, shot).. Pre WW2 germany anyone.. its happening all over again but on a global scale. Propaganda and intimidation are the mark of a desperate government on its dying legs aggresively seeking to gain total control before all is lost and we regain our freedoms by sending these idiots packing.
    Anonymous, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • On the face of it a compulsory national ID card sounds a good idea, until you sit back and realise that its a step towards a Soviet Republic where we'd all have to "show our papers". In addition have you seen exactly how much information will be stored on the damn things?

    This will not counter terrorism at all, terrorists dont give a toss about administrative niceties like passports and ID cards, so what's the point?

    Also this is control freakery of the highest order, an alleged democratic government cannot do this to its free citizens.

    If terrorism is a genuine threat then get proper border and immigration controls and not let a bunch of faceless bureaucrats know everything about us. Beef up our armed forces and National Security agencies, but within the finest traditions of the british freedom

    Freedom is worth fighting for we've had to do it twice last century, now we have to fight our administrative masters no doubt ultimately controlled from Brussels as everything this government does is by sneaky stealth tactics, "slowly slowly catchee monkey". Not this one they wont!

    Yes I'll gladly cough up the £10, good luck to you.
    Richard Henson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards??? whatever next , a black box recorder in your car to track your mileage instead of paying petrol and road duty?? How stupid do they think we are....
    linzie newport, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My favourite thing is the combination of:
    - removal of right to silence in a court of law
    - biometric id cards
    - GPS tracking in vehicles (esp. with real-time reporting, which would come next...)
    - "anti-terror" laws which remove the right to a trial - at all.
    - "emergency police provisions" which allow the police to make mass-arrests with the permission of the home office.
    - attempts to get rid of / reform the "house of lords" and to get rid of the role of "lord chancellor".

    i _used_ to be concerned that these things would be abused by... say... oh, i dunno - the british nazi party (remember lepenn got 15% of the vote in france a few years back, as a "protest" vote against miterrand?)

    but - amazingly - that concern has paled into total insignificance against the background - and quantity - of fascist decision making going on.

    what in _hell's_ name are the idiots in power expecting or aiming to start? world war three??
  • Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton, I am sure that you didn't mean to forgot to mention:
    - removal of the right to trial by jury
    - politician (not even a judge) to order detention without trial (house arrest) of any British citizen
    - same politician to order indefinite detention without charge or trial of foreign nationals

    1000 years of British freedom and liberty whiped out in a couple of years. I keep thinking that they can't go any further, and then they announce some other authoritarian measure; it beggars belief.
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • For me, it boils down to this simple question: "Does the State belong to us or do we belong to the State?" I believe it is the former and so I will never accept an ID card.
    Roy Stilling, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are undoubtedly a step towards a future not unlike East Germany where freedom was severely curtailed.

    Another similar step happens quite soon on August 1st 2005- the right to protest within half a mile of Parliament. Search on the BBC website for ban zone.

    Your right to protest- use it or lose it!

    Oi PledgeBank! Very nice concept- please can we have a link for the No2ID Logo at the top of this page?
    David Bolton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I second the motion. Stick your ID cards up your arse.
    Neil McEvoy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Poorly thought out 'solution', ridiculed by security experts and a vast waste of money.
    Seth Johnson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will gladly contribute my entire savings to a legal defence fund.

    I hope it never gets that far though. By that time I doubt a fair legal system will still exist.
    Stuart Morgan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Stuart Fotheringham, thank you for reminding me.

    I also forgot about these:

    * solicitors and accountants must, on request, provide confidential information to civil servants (such as the Inland Revenue) and they MUST NOT INFORM THEIR CLIENT THAT THEY HAVE DONE SO OR BEEN ASKED TO DO SO.

    * solicitors must, before they act for you and also on certain major transactions such as house sale, seek and have signed in their presence and keep a copy of your passport and some form of recent proof of address. purportedly this is to prove that you are not a "drug dealer" or that you want to sell your children or your mother. it doesn't matter if your solicitor has known you for 20, 25 years.
  • The problem with ID cards is how they fit with other legislation.

    Id cards give the Home Secretary information on everyone including all addresses, religion, medical records and how they voted at the last election.

    Terrorism laws means that the Home Secretary can have someone arrested and detained without trial indefinately based on no evidence and no judicial oversight.

    Since absolutely no Home Secretary in recent history has ever absued his position to, say, push through a visa application, its quite natural to trust him with information on anyone and the power to arrest anyone. Its therefore quite natural to fear the Home Secretary will, unintentionally of course, pick certain annoying campaigners and detain them as terrorists.

    Afterall, you never know when animal rights protesters might hijack an aeroplane and fly it into Parliament. And those Fathers 4 Justice campaigners may at any time decide to let off a dirty bomb. Plus, the links between Amnesty International and Bin Laden are well known from these secret intelligence reports.

    Or are we suggesting to enforce racial profiling? We all know that only Arabs could let off a bomb and only East Europeans fraudulantly claim benefits. And only teenagers vandalise and only white people are racist. It would make the courts so much cheaper!

    The civil service has a long history of being wowed by High Tech new technology (since they fear being called old fashioned) and operating over tremendous IT failures. The CSA diabolical disaster is the norm not the exception and Aircraft control still use paper instead of computers becase its more reliable. Given this, and given the importance the ID card will have in daily life, a simple thing like database corruption would result in complete shutdown of the UK. A bigger thing like theft of the database would compromise the identities of everyone in the nation.

    And thats before I get to things like asking how a plastic ID card will jump out and stop someone blowing themselves up. Thats opposed to employing more trained policemen who actually could. And even thats before I ask when you start calling something a police state.
    Jeffrey Lake, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Leading news on Radio 4's World at One: Researchers from the LSE reckon ID cards will cost *£300* each!!!

    2nd reading of the Bill will be on June 28th -- write to your MPs, to newspapers, NOW!
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We need another Wat Tyler...and soon.
    Blunkett's Love Child, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A free country is NOT one that has an ID database of its citizens. I have a birth certificate, passport, bank statements, medical records, academic records, utility bills, membership cards and a vast number of family and friends if I need to prove who I am. I also reserve the right to remain anonymous unless I need to defend myself against criminal charges.

    And I'm certainly not going to pay to do it!

    Orwell was wrong, but only by 21 years!
  • I think it is fair to say that, despite their insistence to the contrary, Labour will always be socialist, and willing to sacrifice our freedom for the power of the state.
    Master Henry J. Golding, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If four to five million people are against ID cards does that mean the other 55 to 56 million are in favour? I can see nothing wrong with ID cards and flouting the law is not the answer, that's what elections are for.
    Jason Barnett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Identity cards have no place in a democracy.
  • I live in the U.S. and the government here has also been trying to get a National ID card for years. After 9/11, it seems it will become easier. I am very much against it and will fight it. I am glad to see people in other countries doing the same thing. I hope you all manage to get them to drop this whole idea. I am with you all the way on this one. I'd sign the petition but I don't live in the U.K. I posted it on a couple of my sites so maybe some of my readers who do live in the U.K. will read about it and sign your petition. Best of luck to you!
  • Like many others in the IT industry, I can see what a complete waste of effort, time and money this will be. I cannot for my very life see how an ID card would make any real difference to anything other than maybe the odd petty crime such as someone not paying for their prescription, and an ID card scheme is completely out of all proportion to this kind of problem. If it's any consolation to anyone, it will never work properly anyway, from a technical standpoint; but it would be nice if we could use the taxpayer's money to cure cancer or do something of which we could be serenely proud, rather than embarking upon such a daft scheme as this and wasting billions of pounds.
    On a personal note, if what I read in some places is true, I stand to have the medication that I need to live withdrawn if I refuse to comply with this crazy scheme when it eventually becomes compulsory; but I wouldn't want to be part of a society that would do that to someone anyway.
    Damned right I'll refuse!
    Richard Gray, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • They can pry their identity card into my cold dead hand.

    If however, by some act of omission or carelessness, I come into possession of one of these items while still alive, I shall test its resistence to microwave radiation.

    I must concede that, contrary to all common-sense, the cynic in me can't help but want to see this crack-pot scheme implemented purely so I can sit back and laugh at the utter chaos that would ensue.
    Mike Beggs, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nothing you do to your copy of the identity card will do anything to the Government's copy of the central database. That's the really scary bit: if the technology really works, then the Government will track your every move. They will still be able to do stuff like SELECT * FROM subjects WHERE height=1.8 AND skin='white' AND city='birmingham'; -- and they might even find something else on someone else as a bonus, while they were looking for you.

    Just another card wouldn't be half so bad. It's the database aspect that makes things a million times worse.
    A J Stiles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i read a sci-fi story years ago in which the protagonist was basically a non-person because he could not operate any of the computers because his ID chip was taken away. THAT is what we are going to have to worry about, that and retina scans!!!

    When i was living in NYC, Washington Mutual banks wouldn't cash your check unless you gave them a thumb print, so i went to the check cashing place instead. i have to commit a crime AND GET BUSTED for anyone to roll my prints...but people like US are a dying breed in this new world order.
  • I feel most of the more solid problems they say the ID cards will resolve could be solved in an easier, cheaper way. For instance stopping benefit fraud - why not take a photo of the person when they first sign on, so you can compare it to the person who signs on in the future.

    As for the more nebulous reasons, such as 'it will help stop terrorism', I just can't see how, as has been pointed out before the people who flew the Sept 11th planes had valid ID, it made no difference.

    The governments seems to want to spend many billions of Pounds on something that won't be of much use, and really is very unlikely to work how the envisage. The data in it would have to be perfect, which is unlikely in the extreme, and it won't solve a lot of the problems it's being promoted on.

    Besides all that, I expect my civil servants to treat me with the respect I've been due in the past. I am who I say I am and it is up to an objector to prove me wrong, it is not up to me to carry a bit of plastic that lets me be found in a database somewhere just in case I'm one of the tiny minority of people who aren't who they say they are.
  • The fact that Sweden has a register that holds a social security number doesn't make it very different from the existing situation in the UK where everyone is assigned a National Insurance number. I have lived in Norway now for 18 years and of course I also have a Norwegian identity number but that doesn't mean that I have to carry a biometric ID card. Yes this number is used as my ID for bank accounts and so on but so what, the state has never had any difficulty connecting people bank accounts and taxation with or without this convenience. One reason that things like this should be resisted is that the UK is advertised as a democracy but important issues are decided by non-representative minorities.
    Kevin Whitefoot, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dear Sir / Madam

    I run a group which is vehemently against the ID cards. The group is in Scotland and subject to Scots Law which is different to English law. We will only need the ID card to access UK services such as NHS treatment down south, benefits and the likes.

    Before my members sign this pledge and donate £10 towards legal costs, we need to know will you be taking the necessary action in the law courts of Scotland? Or is this for English and Welsh resistance only?
    linda, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So, the voluntary ID card turned into a compulsory one (I don’t member a referendum on that!).

    No way will I *ever* carry an ID card, so I guess I'll go to jail.

    My 10 quid pledge is peanuts compared to years in jail.

    If this pledge is fulfilled I'll put in 100 quid minimum.

    We must get this sort of stuff stamped out ASAP or we'll all be walking around with government chips implanted into us.

    Frank.
    Frank Ibber, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm not even British, yet I find this whole ID card trend so unerving that I'm willing to contribute £10 worth of my US $s to do what I can.
    Carl Quinn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As a few correspondents have already said the world of IT is a joke, I too work in it.
    I recommend you all watch the classic TV series "The Prisoner" staring Patrick McGoohan. It was made in the 1960's and is an Orwellian nightmare where people are reduced to numbers in a village where the controllers watch your every move.
    One of the classic lines is "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own".

    Very prophetic and well ahead of its time. The best series ever produced in my view.

    Be seeing you.
    Number Six, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The state has no right to own our identity. Yet another civil liberty is at risk. Once lost it will never be returned. This legislation must be opposed. Who watches the watchmen?
    Nigel Shelbourne, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A new global police state is now on the horizon.Our forefathers gave their lives for our freedom,which is now at stake.If you think the ID card/car tracker is bad,wait for the implant ID,already seeping into society under the guise of "medical benefits".How long before this becomes compulsory i wonder?(to look after us, of course)

    I will not accept the ID Card or the car tracker,as i am not a crimminal,and i will not be monitored 24/7 by the government and any number of other "agencies". I am disgusted,yet again, by our disgraceful government.
    Jonathan Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I was going to refuse anyway, and I like the idea of the government persecuting a vocal group of 10,000. If the government wants to fight spectres, might I suggest a ouija board for everyone so they can participate in the task if they want? And by the way, when people say that there are too many economic migrants in this country, they never mention me, a white Dutch guy, or indeed any of my fellow white migrants from all over the world.
  • Linda,

    Thanks for drawing attention to the Scottish legal situation. I have taken it for granted that the pledge will defend any UK citizen who resists being "pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered".

    I hope that the pledge organisers will assure us that my confidence has not been misplaced.
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm with this pledge concept all the way. Form the wagons in a circle! When the Government can be tranparent and honest, as befits 'democratically elected' public servants, then perhaps such intrusions as the ID card may be more tolerable. It is quite clear that the motives for these big brother developments are dubious, and not for the benefit of the public at all. It is an issue of trust, the government does not trust us, and feeds us paranoia and I hope that there are few in this country that trust the government. Personally I shall be lobbying against all citizen database plans. Motives aside, the government does not seem to be aware of or care about the potential flaws.

    More time and perhaps money should be spent on getting state service providers to provide services, not on creating more monitor-gazers directed by pricey software.
    Dave Hill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Linda, Pat

    NO2ID is a UK-wide campaign. We have very active groups in Edinburgh & Glasgow, and a Scotland-specific website - see the web address associated with this comment.

    You make an interesting point about Scots not requiring the ID card for devolved services (e.g. the NHS), but the Scottish Executive was earlier today still being very coy about the linkage between their proposed Scottish 'entitlement cards' and the National Identity Register.

    We shall fight this in any and every court in the land if necessary.
  • Thanks Phil!

    I agree with your comments about the Scottish Parliament. "Coy" seems to be a watchword for government, these days!
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The citizens of this country are citizens for life, but the government is only here until the next election.
    They have misjudged the citizenry with this bill.

    Look at the Australian experience. Google the phrase: "ANATOMY OF AN ANTI-ID CARD CAMPAIGN", and see what happened to the government there.

    This pledge caused me to send my first ever mass e-mail to the 110 UK residents in my address book. I'm glad to see that several have already signed here.

    Thanks for setting this up, Tom & pals.
    Michael Hirsh, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Looking over from my side of the pond, I think you have every right to be really concerned. As the photo on my blog indicates, our leaders are not always all that they seem. Though if I had to choose between George and Tony -- What are the shipping rates from there to here exactly?

    We hear mutterings of the same nonsense over here and the same questions apply.
    We have some luck with the conservative gun nuts in the Republican Right being exactly the same kind of people who would lock and load in their townhouse before obtaining a national ID card that wasn't sponsored by the NRA (National Rifle Association).

    We have the same issues. Why make identity theft any easier? How will these cards really be used? How will the government keep them from being misused by hackers who figure out how to read them while we pass by - and don't tell us it can't happen until you tell us that you've secured the card from that kind of thing from happening.

    My God, I just read this month how to expand the range of my home network - read troll for bandwidth on someone else's network too - by using a Pringles can as an antennae!!!!!

    Right. Our technology is soooo secure.

    I wonder what you can do with a can of Spam? Spam and Eggs? Jelly Babies anyone? Sorry. Its very late over here.

    I'll be saving my pence (U.S.) for our own struggles with this demon thank you. But I wanted to take the time to applaud this effort for what it is, a model for all of us for using the internet for intelligent social action.

    Peaceful, nonthreatening, fully participating, asking a little from a lot of people and showing the will and the vox populi. If I wasn't disabled and not able to work since Christmas '03, I probably would be sending you the 10 pounds. Sigh. Have to pay the mortgage instead.

    All the best. You CAN win this one.

    Peter, The Peter Files Blog of Comedy, Satire and the Odd Bit of Random Quarky Stuff
  • Nice to see so many other folk willing to stand tall and fight for what they believe in. In these seemingly increasingly apathetic times it's a breath of fresh air.

    As long as everyone who believes in what we do stands firm and doesn't give in to threats and intimidation, we will not be beaten!
    Luke Atterbury, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am surprised that No2ID has not given prominence to this story on its web site.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/13/...

    The US has dropped plans to require Irish citizens to carry biometric passports when visiting the US because the technology is seen as too unreliable.

    According to the report "Ireland has shelved plans to include biometric chips in passports amid expectations that the US is to abandon its biometric passport requirements"

    This is a pretty big challenge to the government's position on ID cards in two particular ways. First, and most importantly, it contradicts ministers assurances that the technology is sufficiently robust for this kind of application. And secondly, the government has based its push for ID cards on the claim that biometric passports will be required by the US and Europe. So we might as well include an ID card because we are going to have to do it for passports anyway. It is looking increasingly likely that it will not have to be done for passports and so the get an ID card for 'free' argument doesn't apply any more.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Southern-Ireland/Eire have said it violates human rights , they do not want biometic ID of any kind, that is Sinn Fein saying this.

    Anyone who follow psycho's in high places would want to be reduced to a number!

    Is it still worth fightinf for your FREEDOM?

    Do you deserve to be alive if you do not believe in FREEDOM and FREE WILL?
    Angelic FREEDOM, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just out of interest, does everyone know who bankrolled David Blunketts speech at the last labour spinfest? It was Fujitsu-Siemens and they are seen as being a major provider in the id-card shambles. So, labour are already committed to ID cards because they have already had their palms greased.

    Here's a joke...

    What do you call a terrorist with an ID card?

    A terrorist.

    no, it's not a joke.

    ID cards may well tell you who someone is, but does it tell you ANYTHING about their intentions? That is what is important, their intentions. What are they intending to do? Go shopping, mow the lawn or plant bombs to kill and maim. How the hell does an ID card tell you this?

    Does anyone know if the politburo and their families/associates are going to be issued with ID cards or are they exempt like they are going to be from the toll roads?
    Geoff Hirst, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Having to register where you live, or having an ID number, are not at all the same thing as having an ID card. Make no mistake, they WILL become compulsory to carry at all times - if you believe the government's statements to the contrary you were obviously born yesterday - see their assurances about no tuition fees etc. - for 3 reasons, (meaning that in effect one requires permission from the State to leave one's house): 1. This invariably happens in countries that introduce ID cards (most recently The Netherlands, where I lived for many years.)2. Within what limited logic there is for ID cards as an anti-crime and particularly an anti-immigration tool, they cannot work unless they are carried at all times. 3. A majority of the public are in favour of it being compulsory to carry them, and New Labour was never reluctant to do what opinion polls tell it, save only when the US tells it to do something else. Sadly, ID stands subconsciously for Immigrant Detection in the minds of the majority, and that is why, the majority being suspicious of foreigners in all countries, ID cards are popular, with only their cost telling against them in these xenophobic minds. Of course as we know, while there may be a majority in favour, for the pros it is not a big deal, while us antis feel passionately. It is for this very reason that Blunkett made the penalties civil - he knew we would fill the jails to bursting if refusal to cooperate were a criminal offence. Instead, they will seize your bank account or goods until they've got their £2500 fine, and there's nothing you can do about it. In fact, you would actually suffer a lesser penalty for committing a proper crime as a protest against ID cards than for refusing to register for an ID card. To put off the evil day as long as possible, you could try getting a new passport even if the old one has not run out (happily I've just renewed mine anyway) and not bothering to get a new driving licence when you move - a minor illegality, I've only been asked to produce mine once in this country in the 25 years since I passed my test. Sadly, if your job requires you to travel or drive (mine does both), refusing to cooperate with the ID scheme will make you unemployed unless you do such things - £10 is neither here nor there in comparison. .
    Philip Nice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already posted a comment but i had to say (with great pleasure) that a hornets nest has really been stirred up here and its awesome how many comments are actually mirroring each other in the idea of opposing this orwellian illuminist tool of hitleresque control and mind numbing slavery. Having researched what is now transpiring for many years seeing it coming and going from initially being labelled as a mad conspiracy theorist to what is now an obviously finger on the hidden pulse of life kinda guy all I can say is I hope many people on here will find and support each other via the net and combine there individual knowledge to show there is indeed a resistance that is going to oppose tooth and nail the unfolding global facist regime. I only hope the passion and resolve is not dampened by the dark days to come. To quote a certain 80's pop group, god save the queen, she aint no human being, THERE IS NO FUTURE AND ENGLAND DREAMING... well plenty are awakening from the slumber and are mighty annoyed. INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY BEFORE STATE IMPOSED INSANITY. Lets all find ways to unite and oppose similar fascist tools such as speed cameras (police cash cows) and the narrow minded focus of groups such as the CSA (the ability to have contact with a child and giving financial aid to assist as such SHOULD GO HAND IN HAND, I wish the dumb brainwashed bastards who work in there offices would realise this and make a choice of conscience as to who they work for). MAY WHATEVER DIVINE POWERS THERE ARE BLESS ALL OF US AND ENFORCE OUR BRAVERY AND RESOLVE, were gonna need it. :o)
    Anonymous, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This culture of "fear" we live in. Fear of terrorism. Fear of terrorists, sneaking around in terror groups plotting to do terrible things. Yet no /actual/ attacks here in the uk. Not one. Many well publicised 'thwarted' attacks, but hardly any prosecutions and even fewer retractions by the media. Well I'm thirty five years old and grew up in Britain in a climate well used to terrorism - real terrorism with real bombs sponsored by real terrorist fundraisers (NORaid - cheers guys) and the IRA really blew up the town where I lived. But I was never living in fear. There was always a realistic possibility, however small, that I might get blown up doing my shopping or having a beer but we were never living in fear.
    I do not believe that the security forces are now so massively efficient that they have stymied every single attack plotted by (Islamic?) "terror groups". Let's face it, they were pretty crap at preventing the IRA sailing over to Holyhead and driving truck loads of explosives into London even with all the intelligence at their disposal. Threat of terrorism, and the protection that ID cards promise to bring us is all illusion. I don't believe a word of it. I will NOT live in fear. I will not carry an ID card.

    Grrrr.
    Mike Jackson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If the government introduces ID legislation it is only a matter of time before we are all chipped. The technology exists. See the link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verichip

    We must stop this. The government is there to serve us. They need to be reminded of this. They have no mandate for this: less than 25% of voters voted for this government and its policies. They have no authority to do this. No government has authority to do this.
    Yan Swiderski, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Absolutely! "The first thing I wanna say is: Mandate? My ass!"
    Cogito, ergo sum.
    Don't need no card to prove it!
    Andy Sanders, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Copy of a fax sent today 18th June to my MP:-

    Dear Roberta Blackman-Woods,

    As My representative in the House of Commons, I wish to register my
    very strong dismay at the approaching Bill for the introduction of I.D.
    cards, and wish to ascertain YOUR views on how this Bill should be
    approached.
    Are you in favour of this ill considered and anti-libertarian bill?
    Are you in favour of placing vast amounts of data on a National
    Register which is capable of being accessed by anyone with a password?
    Are you in favour of a Bill which has more than sinister overtones of
    Orwell's !Big Brother'?
    Are you in favour of a system which is but one small step away from the
    indelible numbers placed on the arms of six million people who happened to be
    Jewish, and who also do not happen to exist anymore, courtesy of an
    overbearing and arrogant State system which started in all innocence
    just like the proposals coming shortly before the Commons?
    Are you in favour of a State system which knows ALL about the British
    subjects on it's database?
  • ********** BIGBROTHER STATE! ********
    i am strongly against ID cards, and see this as a further move towards state control over the people (we have enough of these already, just look around you!)
    And we are TOLD we live in a free country or so it appears...
    G Cass, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This thing is best nipped in the bud now!,
    The whole concept of the I.D card is a gross infringement of our basic civil liberties.

    People that i really sorry for though are those who won't have a choice in the matter such as our armed forces and the police force who will most likely (if they go ahead with this) will be given an I.D card by default.
    Mike Fishwick, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Make sure your MP knows you don't support ID cards -

    http://theyworkforyou.com

    http://writetothem.com
  • Below is an abridged version of Andrew Gilligan's excellent anti-ID cards article from The London Evening Standard last year. Memorize his criticisms, use them in debates!

    "Why I will never carry an ID card" (November 23rd 2004)

    "It is important we do not pretend that an ID card would be an overwhelming factor in combating international terrorism. I have not made such claims."

    The above words, in July 2002, are of the [former] Home Secretary, David Blunkett.

    "An ID card would make a significant contribution to tackling terrorism."

    The words, in summer 2004, of the same Home Secretary, Mr Blunkett, as he announced that a Bill would be brought forward to introduce compulsory ID cards this autumn.

    Today, as the Bill to introduce ID cards from 2008 was announced in the Queen's Speech, I remain as confused as Mr Blunkett himself appears to be about the real need for this hugely contentious idea. Because make no mistake about this: whether you are for or against, the introduction of ID cards marks an historic shift, for peacetime, in the relationship between the British citizen and the state.

    Every one of us will effectively have to apply to the Government for permission to exist, or at least exist in any way which involves using public services. And even if the principle does not trouble you, the practical effect will be to create an entirely new layer of hassle.

    The innocent, they say, have nothing to fear: but the lesson of the Passport Agency, Criminal Records Bureau and Child Support Agency fiascos is that no Government computer scheme ever avoided massive inconvenience to the innocent. Those schemes were a fraction of this one's complexity and size.

    Even if the technology works, what if some bureaucrat enters your data wrongly? If your card is stolen, how many hours of Greensleeves on the call-centre hotline will it take to replace it?

    In an age when everyone agrees on the need to reduce red tape, ID cards will require an enormous and expensive new bureaucracy, complete with a dozen new crimes and offences for the unwary. Did you know that you will be required to tell the police when you move house — with an £1,000 fine if you forget? Did you know that your friends and neighbours can be required to give information about you? Do you think the constabulary and courts have better things to do? The justification for all this needs to be very strong. But it is not. ID cards are a solution looking for a problem.

    In all the years of debate and argument, no one has yet explained how exactly the cards will reduce terrorism or most kinds of crime. Will muggers be obliged to show you their ID before they hit you over the head? Did Spain's compulsory ID system prevent the Madrid bombings?

    Mr Blunkett claims that 35% of terrorists use false or multiple identities: which means, by my reckoning, that 65% of terrorists use their own identities. They do so because they are not known to the authorities as terrorists, a factor which can only increase. ID cards may be able to reduce the use of false and multiple identity among British citizens; but the vast majority of Islamic terrorists are not British citizens.

    ID cards might, it is true, help reduce certain types of fraud. But even by the Government's own reckoning, identity-related benefit fraud amounts to no more than £50 million a year; NHS tourism to "a few hundred million"; and all identity-related fraud, public and private sector, to a total of £1.3 billion.

    An ID card scheme would cost a minimum of £2 billion. [NOTE: the estimated cost as of June 16th 2005 is between £12 and 18 billion!]

    An ID scheme may seem popular now — but once people learn more about it, the resentment will build. Making everyone pay £75 [perhaps over £100!] to go to the police station and have their fingerprints taken may not be quite the vote-winner that Mr Blunkett thinks.
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Congratulations to the organisers of this pledge scheme and to everyone who is getting so enthusiastically involved. We must now pull out all the stops to ensure that it succeeds.

    But there is a second, equally important pledge that you can make with very little effort, and this one exploits the politics of fear. Three weeks ago I wrote to my Labour MP, Tony Bliar and my other political representatives. No lengthy arguments, just the simple pledge: “Bring in ID cards, and I shall never vote Labour again.”

    For there is nothing that politicians fear more than the prospect of losing their jobs and losing their power. So ahead of the second reading of the ID card Bill on June 28th, send a simple message to your political representatives, especially Labour MPs, and put the fear of God into them. We must and shall prevail!
    John Welford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No. Simply, no.
    Jamie Dobson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I was born a human not to be treated like an animal on a lead
    John Aitken, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A number of Quakers are coming out against this ID system proposal among other concerns. Olive Lloyd, Joan Castwood and Barbara Sharp are three Friends from Godalming meeting, not on the internet, now signed up to this pledge with email c/o William Heath.
    Joan Castwood, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • How naive can people be. The technology to read your card without you taking it out of your pocket has been around for over 25 years. Clothes shops have identity cards on garments so if you try to steal, an alarm goes off as you go through the door. With discreet card readers everywhere you will effectively be tagged. Maybe we should call them tags not cards. At the moment we only tag supposed criminals.

    It is only necessary to store an identity number on the card then every detail of your life will be looked up on various central databases. If your credit rating is not good enough you may be barred entry from shopping malls etc etc.
    Paul Nickalls, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As an IT consultant/project manager working for one of the "Big Three" worldwide IT services companies, I can attest to the legendary lack of care that is often taken when specifying and implementing UK public service computer systems.

    We should take the Child Support Agency application processing system, and the Inland Revenue Accounting Offices IS/MIS project, as lessons to learn that government IT systems planning needs a huge rethink.

    In my professional view, a system of this magnitude is likely to become an extreme liability if the level of reliance is as high as the government Bill suggests. I simply do not trust that the appropriate management has the wherewithal to ensure the system is adequately managed, through development to operation.

    The scheme also shifts the focus of personal data ownership from individual to organisation in a broad change, which marks the death toll for responsible data handling by the government and perhaps even for data protection in general.

    Thus I wholeheartedly join those on this pledge, and wish the best of luck to all who wish to stand up to these tyrants.
    Nicholas Turnbull, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I, and a few hundred others (including a lovely genteman of 72 years called Norman Laws), went to jail rather than pay Frau Thatchler's insidious Poll Tax.

    By making sure I never turned up in court when summonsed, the police and court time must have totalled approximately £5,000 back in the early '90s.

    Then my month in jail, at £2,000 per week, totalled £8,000, giving a total of £13,000 expended to collect a £550 Poll Tax Bill which was never, therefore, paid.

    Any insidious idea such as this can be defeated by a few hundred dedicated individuals. The higher they place the 'penalties' the more it works against them. It's simple: You just don't pay. You make them waste the maximum amount of taxpayer's money enforcing their scheme. Thus the problem rebounds on them to square it all up with 'the taxpayers', using economics as I described above. Would you like to use those economics when squaring it up with 'the taxpayers'?

    The ID Cards Scheme could easily be Labour's Poll Tax if people break through the psychological propaganda and realise how easy it is to defeat this sort of thing: Hit them in the pocket, and let's have picture of Tony B Liar leaving Downing Street in tears.
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well said Veronica. This scheme must be stopped at all costs. Something has gone very badly wrong with this government, and I don't mind admitting that their motives frighten me.
    It is staggering that they behave this way when they only 1 in 5 of the vote.
    I will resist to the end - I will not be broken.
    Tim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Even is you trust the government, your record would soon be stolen by people you don't trust.

    There's no evidence that we'd be more secure than the USA which, unlike the UK, has laws to make organisations notify victims of such theft. For example, "MasterCard International on Friday said information on more than 40 million credit cards may have been stolen."
    http://news.com.com/MasterCard+breach+hi...
    Peter, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can we get some sort of RSS feed or live counter button displaying the number signed up so that it can be used in blogs and other supportive websites? (I'm not a techie so can't do this sort of thing off my own back I'm afraid)
    Owen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In answer to Matthew Snook's question about when the "turning point" came when ID cards were previously abandoned after the war:

    In December 1950, a small businessman named Clarence Henry Willcock was stopped while driving in London by a police officer who demanded that he present his ID card at a station within 48 hours. He refused, and was prosecuted and convicted in the case Willcock vs. Muckle. He appealed and lost. Despite the outcome of the case, the then Lord Chief Justice Lord Goddard commented:

    …it is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause… This Act was passed for security purposes, and not for the purposes for which, apparently, it is now sought to be used. To use Acts of Parliament, passed for particular purposes during war, in times when the war is past, except that technically a state of war exists, tends to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs. Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them...

    Goddard then refused to award costs against Willcock. These events are thought to have influenced then Prime Minister Winston Churchill's decision in 1952 to drop the card.

    Comes from: http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrb/script-ed/v...
    which has a very good analysis of ID cards.
    Matthew Linden, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I refuse to be branded and tracked like an animal in my own country.
  • I've made a banner for this pledge, which you can put on your web page. This link shows you how you can use it.

    http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~jack/ref...
  • I was born with my fingers, my fingertips are mine. I was born with my eyes, the irises are mine also. My entire genetic fingerprint is mine. All of the information encoded into my being is mine. I will not be forced to give away or entrust any of this information to anyone, or allow anyone to use this information, let alone pay them to do so. My identity is mine, it is as precious as life itself. I should be trusted with it, and I trust noone else with it.

    What next? Passwords held in escrow by the government so you don't need to remember them? A copy of your front door key held by the local constabulary just in case you lose it?

    Why does the government all of a sudden implicitly trust technology to solve all our ills? There has been recent evidence of cases where it has dramatically failed, so why is it now the best thing since sliced bread? Ironically, the premature (ab)use and subsequent failure of this technology may just be our saving grace.
    Nathan Brown, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Many thanks, Jack, for your excellent banner!

    For those of you who have them, how about adding it to your website or blog? It updates every 5 minutes, so your visitors will be able to see how many have pledged so far.

    4,000 and counting...
  • Thanks to Jack for the banner. That was quick work!
  • Hi Guys,
    It is so reassuring to see that there are so many other people prepared to stand up and resist this government and their insistance that we give up our hard won liberties in the name of 'freedom' and security.( and before anyone calls me right wing, I am a socialist its just that I have been pushed to the Anarchist end of the scale recently because I see no other viable alternative).

    I will never register for or carry an ID card. That is a promise, whatever the consequences. Anyone who believes that this is an over reaction check out the Liberty report into ID cards. The ID card system introduced during WW1 originally had 3 uses, by 1950 it was used for 39 different purposes. Does anyone really believe that this would not be replicated ten fold today?

    This is our 'Combination Acts' folks. We have to resist because if we don't it will already be too late and our children and grandchildren will never forgive us.

    RESIST, RESIST, RESIST. And if all else fails, I'll see you on Bondai Beech!
    Tracy Hunter, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards-BOLLOX!A great cause Phil!
    Rick Lock, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Another form of control, brought in to "protect" us from the invisible threat manufactured by the real criminals that have seized control of this, and other, countries. Wake up people!! Say NO to ID cards! A total load of crap.
    Paul Muskett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dylech chi cael y ffurflen hon yn y Gymraeg. Baswn i'n llofnodi'r ddogfen wedyn.
    Gareth Clubb, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks for the suggestion, Owen! I think it's a good idea. Perhaps Pledgebank should provide an official feature that allows pledge creators to generate little auto-updating banners for their pledges.
  • Well spotted Paul (Jossy),Keep your eyes and ears wide open and encourage others to do the same. We may not beat the buggers but we'll give them a good run for their money.
    Jon Leyton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Complain to Pledgebank, Gareth, not to Phil.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already have a wallet bulging with cards that identify me, oh, and a passport. Why waste any more plastic?
  • What's more, Andrew, not carrying any of those cards, or your passport, is not illegal. Whether you carry them with you, or whether you have them at all, is a matter of your choice. You have a passport because you choose to go overseas (or you choose to have a job that obliges you to). Your choice.

    You have bank cards since you choose to have a bank account. You could, completely legally, work entirely for cash (income tax and NI can be paid in cash or with a cashier's cheque bought for cash from a bank),

    Certainly it's more convenient not to work for cash (or even barter) but it's a matter of choice, not legal compulsion, to have a bank account.

    You may have a work ID card; you choose to work for an employer who requires one. Again, your choice. The Home Secretary was not involved in that choice at any time.

    The proposed ID card and database entry will be matter of legal compulsion, not choice, so the cards you carry now are not comparable.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards? Not in my name!
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Benn on ID cards, and how the neo-conservatives have removed our civil liberties using 9/11 as an excuse:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/...
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Another good reason for leaving the country.
  • BLAIR APOLOGIES FOR TAX BLUNDERS is headline story on BBC at the moment: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4112...

    Where HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) had "caused hardship or distress" recovering overpayments from the HMRC computer system.

    Yet another example of a British government IT initiative causing problems for citizens.

    Imagine how much more damage could be done with the proposed N.I.R. database? What will Tony Blair be appologising for then?
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What can I say, it's my dad.

    82 years old, ex RAF pilot (WW2) and genuine all round law abiding person.

    Signs a pledge like this? Makes ya proud dunnit.....
    Jack G. Bagwell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • From the latest 'Private Eye':

    The London School of Economics report on the cost of identity cards provoked home secretary Charles Clarke to denounce the idea that ID cards could cost £300 each as "simply mad."

    If so, there must be a rash of insanity among galley slaves at the UK passport agency: word from inside the agency is that their own projections show the cost of ID cards to be, er, £300 per card.

    Apparently no one has seen fit to tell ministers that the £300 figure has long been the basis of the agency's calculations. The high cost of the card seems entirely probable given the government's atrocious record on IT procurement. The government itself concedes that the current suggested price of £93 is only indicative and is, of course, the culmination of an awful lot of projected price rises since a £35 price tag was first mooted.
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As someone who works in the IT industry as a consultant, I can assure everyone that there is no such thing as a secure computer system.

    How long before the "national database" is hacked?

    Once hacked, how reliable will the information be?

    Will you really be who your ID card says you are?

    I pity the IT department who has to manage this system - they are going to be in for one hell of a time trying to protect against attacks and viruses.
    Mike Hurley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Nigel's suggestion that placing a misleading auction on ebay would be a good way to draw attention to the no2id pledge. I feel this would be a very inappropriate way of gathering support for no2id being just the sort of social engineering that supporters of no2id ought to be against. However, the motive of gathering more support for the pledge without spamming or using other obnoxious advertising methods I wholeheartedly support, so:

    Sign here yourself and make sure any potential supporters of no2id know about the pledge too!
    Silas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just received a letter from my Labour MP, Frank Dobson:

    "There is little evidence that they [ID cards] curtail civil liberties."

    Apart, of course, from the fact that they will require us to be fingerprinted like common criminals and allow the government to track every detail of our lives thereafter!
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oliver,

    With that response from Frank Dobson, I must say, there is at least as much evidence that ID cards curtail civil liberties as there is evidence that they cut crime/immigration/benefit fraud/terrorism/<insert latest Daily Mail scare here>
    Craig Nicol, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Do I qualify as "nearest person to where Clarence Willcock was stopped"? This was about 200 yards from where I live. I think there should be a blue plaque up!
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "nearest person to where Clarence Willcock was stopped"? This was about 200 yards from where I live. I think there should be a blue plaque up!"

    Now there's a good way to publicise NO2ID & this pledge
    jp, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Howabout a sign saying "This was the end of the road for ID Cards 50 years ago. Don't let them come back again now. SAY NO 2 ID."
    Nathan Brown, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am against ID cards but only on civil liberty principles, mainly due to the idea of them having biometric data. Without it though the cards could be easily forged and wouldn't really be worth it. The card should definitely be free though. They can't expect to introduce something like this and get us to pay, unless a referendum is held and we vote yes to ID cards. And they know most people will vote no.

    Your movements can already be quite easily tracked using our mobile phones, credit card payments, car reg readers, e-mails and anything else you have registered your details too. They can even use your mobile to bug conversations, even if you phone is switched off! The reality is that in this day and age the only way authorities can effectively combat most criminal acts, terrorism, illegal immigration, etc is to have everybody’s details in one place linked to fingerprints and DNA.

    There’s already a national database with the details, fingerprints and DNA of convicted criminals. You get convicted of something and your ass is there’s so to speak. Do something else naughty and leave prints or DNA, you screwed.

    I can understand why people are against a national database but if your not expecting to commit a crime then why should you worry. A national ID card database would help prevent and combat crime.

    Unless you like illegal immigrants sponging off of your tax money, thieves, murderers and rapists wondering the streets and generally nasty crimes going unsolved then oppose the national ID card.

    But, after all that I still oppose the idea of a national id database for one reason. The details that would be held on that database can never be 100% secure from misuse. In an article Tony Benn summed it up quite well when he wrote, 'the danger lies in the accumulation, storage and use that may be made of this information'.

    He also wrote, 'under the arrangements that Britain has with the US that allow us access to their nuclear technology in the Trident programme, America has long insisted that it should have access to all our intelligence material. That means the ID database will be automatically available to it.' A scary thought and something that should never happen!

    I leave you with my closing statement:

    If you give them an inch, they WILL take a mile, sooner or later.
    Chuck Norris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • OK, Mr 'Chuck Norris'. To address some of your points.

    "if your not expecting to commit a crime then why should you worry [about an ID card". Why you should worry is whether the government is planning to commit a crime against you. An national id register of the kind proposed means investing a lot of trust in the government in whose stewardship it resides. This government is not worthy of that trust.

    "Unless you like illegal immigrants sponging off of your tax money, thieves, murderers and rapists wondering the streets and generally nasty crimes going unsolved then oppose the national ID card" ID cards can solve none of these things. If the cards were used to monitor every commercial and social interaction that we make during the day the they might make a difference, but at a price to one's privacy and convenience that most people would find unacceptable. After all we could eliminate nearly all road accidents by requiring that cars went no more than 5 mph with a man in front waving a red flag. But no one would seriously suggest that we should.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well done Phill Booth! With you all the way, we must stand against state tyranny.
  • As a Man once said...

    I will not be:

    Pushed,
    Filed,
    Stamped,
    Indexed,
    Briefed,
    De-briefed
    or
    Numbered!

    MY LIFE IS MY OWN!
  • Didn't the Nazis use ID cards in concerntration camps? They just tattoed ID numbers on their citizens (Jews) arms.

    Hang on !

    Isn't this the answer to the question "Only people who have something to hide are against the ID Card?"

    Exactly what did the Jews have to hide?
    before they were thrown into concertration camps by the the government of the day?

    But of course the Nazis were bad people it would never happen here.

    Nazis were the legally elected government of the day.

    Just like Tony Blair is the legally elected goverment of the day now.

    Arhh now I see where this is going......

    Tony Blair wants to control us in the same way the Nazis controlled the Jews.

    And what is to stop him?
    Stephen George, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • say NO to the new nazi state
    peter wetzel, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Reading recent comments, I feel the need to dissociate myself from the conspiracy theories being put forward about a "new nazi state" or "the United Nation's avowed intent to eliminate 4 out of every 5 human beings". This is the kind of thing that lets the supporters of the ID card scheme brand their opponents as hysterical scaremongers.

    My opposition to the proposals is based on the real ethical and practical problems of the scheme itself: the invasion of privacy; the reliance on unreliable technology; the inevitable misuse of data; the prospect of inconvenience, disenfranchisement and worse for law-abiding citizens; the enormous waste of money; and the negative shift in the relationship between the individual and the state.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm no fan of conspiracy theories either. Nevertheless, absolute power corrupts absolutely -- and if the 20th century teaches us anything, it's that threats to our life and liberty can come just as easily from our own governments (elected or otherwise) as from hostile foreigners.
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I personally am against Tesco Clubcards - they collect data on what you buy and stock the shops accordingly - surely there's a conspiracy here somewhere first they find out what you buy then they start offering bank accounts, insurance, mortgages, cars - pretty much run your life and then take over the world with blandness. Perhaps the government should get Tescos to do the id cards they obviously have the infrastructure in place already so they might be able to save a bit of money and perhaps do it a bit more efficiently. In fact perhaps they should let Tescos run the country.
    Matthew Pollard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So don't get a Clubcard. Nobody is proposing legal action for not having a Tesco Clubcard, Matthew. Nor to the best of my knowledge does Tesco have people standing next to the till threatening to prosecute you for not presenting your card on demand. Nor, come to that, will Sainsbury's refuse to serve you if their security guards detect a Clubcard in your pocket instead of a Nectar card.

    As Eleanor says, let's not trivialise this. Let's remember that this is a serious issue. It's not an issue of choosing or not choosing to have a loyalty card, it's not about the Illuminati, nor is it about (as some appear to be saying on Yahoo discussion groups) about some Milllennial plan to mark us all with the Number of the Beast.

    This is about the State deciding to reverse the burden of proof of innocence - we would have to (in some undefined way consisting of being able to produce a card) prove that our intentions in simply walking down a street were "honourable"; with their definition of "honourable" being applied, plus the State - supposedly OUR servant - deciding to hold a central, easily accessible and easily cross-referenceable database of details that have absolutely nothing to do with State control being held on that database.

    If we get silly about this the pro-Government press will have more ammunition than they need to say "well, that's the sort of people who are against ID cards: need we say more?"
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Walton is correct. We need to ensure that the NO2ID Campaign is taken seriously, if the comments get too hysterical then we will end up losing our liberties, and it will be our own fault.

    These ID Cards are simply a Government intrusion on everyday life: We need to ask ourselves - and the public at large - do you want a government that controls everything, or one that simply serves the public and doesn't try to rule.
  • The case for a national ID card & database is not valid, it won’t stop terrorists, it won’t stop illegal immigrants, it won’t stop benefit fraud and it won’t stop identity theft.

    The IT infrastructure would be overwhelmingly complicated and I don’t believe it would cope, just look at the history of government IT projects, over budget, late and prone to crashing.

    This is too much like the German fascist state of the 1930s. I have no wish to be categorised by race, religion, political opinion, sexual orientation, physical fitness or burden on society. What next, death camps & concentration camps?

    I am NOT a criminal!

    I am NOT government property!

    I do NOT need government permission to live!

    I will NOT be fingerprinted, iris scanned, measured or numbered!

    I will NOT apply for or carry an ID card!

    I will NOT renew my passport if I have to give any of the above.
    Derek Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Apologies for following up my own posting, but I thought of something else. A Tesco Clubcard, or a Nectar card, or whatever, has two marked differences from the proposed ID card (apart from that of choosing to have one or not).

    One, it's free. The cost to me of the ID card ranges from the initial (and even so exorbitant, for something I don't choose to have) £35 or so, up to £90-odd or very much more, depending on to whom you listen.

    Two, the supermarket loyalty card has a benefit to me. either in terms of a discount (admittedly very small) or in terms of "free stuff" (again, not very much of it, but *something*). The Government's ID card will cost me money and bring *absolutely no benefit* to me.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oliver, I think you're absolutely right to say that "if the 20th century teaches us anything, it's that threats to our life and liberty can come just as easily from our own governments (elected or otherwise) as from hostile foreigners." But I think we'll be able to fight this far more successfully if we keep the focus on the clear and present dangers rather than future hypotheticals which are easy for opponents to dismiss.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's even worse...

    The Independent On Sunday (26 June 2005) "Ministers plan to sell your ID card details to raise cash".

    Tony Blair's government knows this madcap ID scheme is going to cost more money than they are stating publically, their solution?

    Firsly, sell your data to private companies!

    Secondly, private firms are going to be able to "verify customer' identity though iris scanning or finger-printing".

    This is despite the promise made when the Home Office launched a public consultation on ID cards in April last year, when officials pledged that "unlike electoral registers, the National Identity Register will not be open for any general access or inspection."

    So, the government are liars; quelle suprise. What else will they do with this database?

    Unless we stop this, it won't be long before you have to be fingerprinted at supermarket checkouts.

    Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politic...
    Comment: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24189
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As Stuart says, it seems the Government are worried about the cost of this stupidity.

    According to today's Times:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...

    "Opinion polls suggest that although the public will support ID cards if they are reasonably priced, backing could plummet if the cards cost £100 or more. A poll in today’s Mail on Sunday shows only one in 10 people would back the cards if they were £100. If the charge rose to as much as £300, only 2% of those asked said they would be in favour."

    So what are they proposing to do? Scrap the barking mad scheme before it starts? Not a bit of it. From the same article:

    "Confidential Home Office findings show that the cost of the cards has already risen from £39 to £110, forcing ministers to consider ways of making savings. They are now suggesting collapsing the ID card into the passport, which UK citizens already pay £42 for, and scrapping the need for costly iris scans and fingerprinting.

    Rather than having to provide biometric data such as this, ministers may introduce a cheaper “chip and pin” system like many banks have brought in, but this is considered less secure than unique iris patterns or fingerprints."

    So let me get this right. The thing that they claimed - the "impossibility" of forging the card because of its impressively-scientific sounding "biometric" nature - is to be replaced with a cheapy PIN system.

    That's all right then. After all, it's almost impossible to get someone's PIN number from them without their knowledge, isn't it?
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Stuart said
    "Unless we stop this, it won't be long before you have to be fingerprinted at supermarket checkouts."

    I think he's absolutely right and another reason why anyone concerned about the over-arching power of corporate interests should stop patronising supermarkets and use local, independant shops instead. Before you have no choice except to buy factory food from a supermarket chain. ID cards are but one example of corporate / government control. We need to be alert to them all.
    Louisa, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is another case of politicians looking for quick fixes to to the symptoms of the problem rather than trying to fix the problem at the cause. In the 50 years I been on this planet I have seen civil liberties continually slip - enough is enough.
    Keith Whittingham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm firmly against ID cards.
  • The news that the govt plan to sell individuals details to businesses are the final proof, if any were needed, of where government interests lie.
    Fiona McCaw, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Louisa said:
    "anyone concerned about the over-arching power of corporate interests should stop patronising supermarkets and use local, independant shops instead."

    This is so important - even although it can be difficult to do for those trying to handle today's frenetic lifestyles. However, it is worth the effort to seek out small businesses selling fresh meat, fish, cheese, fruit and vegetables. The rewards are several: better taste, pleasant shopping experience, supporting independent business and independent farmers, fisheries etc.

    Use your corner shop before it closes. Of course, these shops cannot always compete with the prices in supermarkets but think of the saving in travelling time and expense that you can make by not going to the Big Boys. Enjoy the personal service and shop at a leisurely pace.

    While you're thinking about this, why not get your fresh milk, cream and eggs delivered to your door. It is already impossible to get this service in many areas because the milkmen have gone out of business so, if it is available in your area, support the service and keep it viable for generations to come.

    We do have choices but sometimes we are too lazy to implement them.
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I shall be meeting my MP for the first time in July to talk to him about obesity and steroid victims. I shall also tell him I am against ID cards.

    Though it must be said that when I've previously contacted MPs - dozens of letters, some meetings - I've never received any actual help from them. They don't usually like to put their heads above parapets...
  • In my experience, most MPs don't seem even to read their letters or emails.

    www.wildeaboutsteroids.co.uk
    Margaret Wilde, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally disagree with this proposal.
    Should it be enforced upon us I will refuse to have one.
    George Linsell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No one can be trusted with as much power as the proposed system would bring. Not now or in the future.

    In addition to it being dangerous, this proposal is a direct assault on our dignity as citizens. It shifts the subtle balance of power between ourselves and the state. And it is an obscene waste of money. No, we must never pass such systems on to our children.

    If I am doing nothing wrong, YOU SHOULD NOT BE WATCHING ME.
    Ozzie Williams, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Unfortunately my local MP chaired one of the Parliamentary Committees that suggested ID cards, so I'm not expecting much support there, likewise he supported the second Iraq War. There must be a turning point soon, surely?!
  • Turning point? Let me put it this way: I've been left-wing all my life, but if the next Tory manifesto promises to get rid of ID cards, they've got my vote -- and I'll be putting that in writing to their next leader.
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY
    JOHN WILKINSON, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What I find the most insulting aspect is the so called 'non-compulsory' element: Non-compulsory only if you plan on not having any kind of life.. ever! Presuming it does cost nearer £300 as the more trustworthy sources state, how is it no more than an extra 'stealth' tax? Fortunately I know for a fact that my MP (whom I voted for) will vote against this bill. There will no doubt be some charm offensive involving (sorry scousers, I know you love her -for some unknown reason!) Little Miss Nauseating along the lines of the Iraq war debacle (Cherie Blair begging Women MPs for those who are puzzled); with any luck this will fail (hopefully in a blaze of negative publicity. Failing that, of course there is always The Lords. I am just worried about having to trust to luck on this one.
    The fact remains that most of the arguments in favour are to counter various 'threats' that I am convinced do not exist to the extent some would have us believe (Try and get hold of BBC2's 'The Power of Nightmares' -on terrorism; and the CBI report on how immigration is VITAL to the continued health of our economy). I have one of my feelings that they are gonna get their faces rubbed in the dirt on this one... I am hoping this one is right...
    Nick Harvey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Some from the FBI and CIA have also said in the past that is is better that Osama bin Laden is not caught, better that he is free. Please research this information. Whiel it is still available - it will be pulled.


    7 out of 10 in America think Torture is acceptable now, will we soon be lowering our standards to this? How sick and dumbed down will the population become before we realise were are everything what Hitler wanted the world to be like?

    Life is really getting that evil for us all, or at least it will be, you can smell is almost, I can already taste it in the air, do you want to experience it.

    Well be prepared for it becuase Haliburton is in the process of building concentration camps Internationally now, will you be in one when you try to resist? What about the abductions the CIA does now? Some Governments in the EU are willing to tackle this one, but not the UK - it is sad to say.
    Angela, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So, ID cards are a fundamental for fighting the war on terror are they? When this concept was first raised, the cards were going to be introduced in a time frame of 5-10 years. If Churchill had promised to introduce ID cards the day he became PM during the war and then taken 5 years to introduce them, the first cards would have been introduced a week after the fall of Germany! Just how long does this government plan to fight the war on terror if it can afford to wait 5 years before rolling this "vital" weapon?

    (I know that ID cards were issued during the War but in that war Britain alone was suffering the same casualty rate as 911 EVERY SINGLE WEEK for 6 years. It was a total war for every single person in the country and one in which there was a very real danger of invasion and destruction of the country. Whatever happens in the war on terror, we do not face the sort of threat that (maybe) justified the use of ID cards 60 years ago. It's also interesting to note that soon after the war ended the cards were disposed of too - is that the plan for the 21st century ID cards?)

    Of course ID cards have nothing to do with the war on terror. The police and home secretary wanted ID cards long before anyone flew a plane into a building in NY.

    And with respect to anit-fraud measures, why doesn't the govt prosecute those that commit the fraud rather than persecute the rest of us? We are not the guilty ones and yet their solution to the crime is to limit our freedoms. Why? Because it's the easier solution.

    God, how I hate this vile concept! We are right to oppose this law and I applaud those that set up this web-site.
    Nick Walker, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't need an ID card to tell me who I am because I already know - and if anyone else needs to know they can ask me. I do not need a plastic record of my DNA, my iris pattern or my bank account because I already have one. I am my own ID, my body carries all the information I need free of charge and nobody has the right to steal my copyright.
    I will not have an ID card.

    And imagine this. Last year my handbag and all contents was snatched under the full view of CCTV cameras. It was never found and the thief never caught. It cost me a lot of time and money to replace the bank cards, mobile phone, driving license, NHS prescription exemption certificate and all the other things I need. I had the car and house keys safe in my pocket and remembered the phone number to freeze the line, and bank account numbers to withdraw cash with a counter cheque and freeze the account until I got home, thus allowing me to buy new reading glasses with which to check the police statement I signed. The cheque book was used in conjunction with my cheque guarantee card and there is nothing I could do about it.
    But what would I do if my ID card was stolen and I didn't remember the numbers then? Nobody seems to have thought of this. There would be a strong market in stolen British ID cards worldwide, would there not? Anyone parking in disabled parking slots would be in need of three minders on every trip. I cannot afford this, I cannot therefore possible countenance there being an ID card in my name created.
    My body is my own, and I won the copyrights. I do not intend to give permission for anyone else to have those details.
    Sue Doughty, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As any bank or credit card company will tell you, organised crime is better funded, more efficient, better organised and supremely better motivated that any bank or state office could ever aspire to be. Therefore forged ID crads will be on sale in the streets of Lagos befor ethe real thing hits your doormats. But they can't forge me, yet!
    Sue Doughty, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Subsidised by selling our data;

    http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politic...

    Perfect...
    Jason Boissiere, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nick Walker writes:

    "It's also interesting to note that soon after the war ended the cards were disposed of too - is that the plan for the 21st century ID cards?)"

    It took a good seven years after World War II ended to finally get the wartime ID card scheme.

    The reason why it took so long was because the Labour government of the time found it expedient to use it in other areas. The people got heartily annoyed by this as the war had ended - and, as there was no war any more, there was no need for wartime ID cards. In the end, one man (Clarence Willcock) brought an effective end to the whole thing and the incoming Tories abandoned it in 1952. The dream of bringing back 'ID cards' must have been present in some areas of government ever since they were abolished.

    It is an imperative that we stop the present abomination before it is allowed to start. If we fail this surveillance state will flourish.
    Paul Brookfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The government is simply trying to use fear of terrorism and illegal immigrants as a weapon against us so that it can manipulate us into becoming its obedient sheep. ID cards have existed in Spain for years and have done nothing to prevent terrorism there. In addition to ID cards, they want to install a tracking device in every car, ostensibly so that a satellite can monitor our road useage and charge us accordingly, but really so that they can know where we are at all times. I will refuse to carry an ID card. I will refuse to allow a tracking device in my car.
    Declan Chellar, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i will be refusing to carry an ID card.

    I can imagine the time that we will not be able to travel out our own streets without registering the card at a check point. Entry to airports , etc..will all be the same.

    Big brother will be watching and we are one step away from a police state.
    ewan irvine, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This ID scheme is made to fail, the UK government just won't pull it off, Tony Blair hardly has enough time with his head outta Bush's arse as it is! I don't care about carrying Identification when need be, sure a centralised card would be nice but the costs involved and the fact its a sure set failure really dont appeal to me. BTW outta interest, if 10,000 people sing up will the government scrap this plan or will it be another free speech effort that the government ignore?
  • Don't worry, they'll ignore the public like they always do. Its not as if they're meant to represent us or anything.
  • I will never sign up for an id card.
    It is a total invasion of my privacy. In the late 1970's I spent some time living in one of the former Eastern block countries in what was a culture so vastly different from the western World. A place where freedom from a constant life of absolute monotony and despair was a dream for the citizens of that particular country and others in the region. The locals were envious of my freedom of having a British passport. I was also proud of that then. I relished that freedom. Still do. Now I am not so proud of being British but increasingly resentful of a goverment which seems to think it can steam roller us into outrageous schemes like id cards and black boxes for our cars. Well they can't. Clearly they have fast growing opposition to such plans and thankfully so. They can go back to the drawing board and search for intelligent and much more sensible solutions to their problems. Freedom is the greatest privilege. I will never be tagged like some criminal or animal. This is what those dumb schemes represent to me. If I want such big brother, freedom-less existence then for heavens sake I will escape to some last bastion of communism like North Korea!!!

    Dave Robinson at around 14.10, Monday
    Dave Robinson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Union of UEA Students, at the Uni of East Anglia, Norwich has passed a motion "condeming ID cards". We wrote several letters to Charles Clarke, as we have the unfortunate pleasure of him being our local MP. We also believe that "ID cards are unnecessary, will not reduce crime and terrorism and are an attack on the right to privacy"

    I would also like to add that I personally support this as well as my whole Union.

    Steve Williams,
    Liberations Officer
    Union of UEA Students
  • I'm opposed to ID cards in principle and fail to see how they would be of benefit to the public in practice.
    Ruth O'Rourke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Signed it, cajoled mates into signing it and wrote to my MP: http://yurel.com/yg71 although as she's an ultra-loyalist, I don't expect a lot back (hence why I didn't bother trying to persuade her of the principle).
  • From as far back as I can remember I have aways been under the impression that this was a free crountry thanks to our forfarthers who fought in both the 1st and 2nd w/wars. So would sombody please tell me who gave these p--ks in government the right to act like gods and throw away all that those people did for us. Do we realy want to live in a police state how long will it be untill we have a curfew every night. why should I be forced to pay an exorbitant amount of money for something I don't need. I have managed the last 45 years without one nothing has changed that I can see to make these nessessary. I certainly DON'Twant one, and as far as I'm concerned they can shove them right where the sun don't shine and get this NOW i AM NOT HAVING ONE
    Andy Lewis, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not spending money on having something that the government says is compulsory. If it is compulsory, then you have to give it away!

    Even then I don't want it, won't carry it, will microwave it at the first opportunity and will provide a non-standard photgraph if asked e.g. wearing a fake moustache or painting my face blue and dripping blood from my lips...

    I could rant on but this would be a very long message that only reitterates the same feelings of many others. This has to go to a referedum and it has to lose!

    Finally, if you want to steal iris prints and fingerprints you need only to be able to break the encryption in the id devices... not that difficult, just time consuming, plus you can fake fingerprints... how to do it is on the Computer Chaos Club website, plus i'm sure if someone were serious enough about identity theft then they could have fake iris patterns put onto contact lenses...
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Steve Williams, it's good to see that my alma mater are still sensible, politically. Good on y'all!

    Owen Blacker, Technical Manager, NO2ID and UEA graduate (BIO 1993–97)
  • You got kinda offtopic there...
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just want to warn people about the infowars links above. I looked around that sight several months ago, and it is designed to spin opponents of the rising tyranical powers into paranioa.

    Whilst I quite like the quote from the film Stange Days, "These days it is not a question of whether you are paranoid, but whether you are paranoid enough", going into panic mode like that website has will just make us look like conspiracy nuts.

    We can get through this if we just remain calm and rational, and fight each issue as it comes up. Panic and we shall lose...

    Saw this site mentioned on the bbc news last night, and they said we had 25000 members, but here it still only says 5441...

    ...so did they make a mistake? Or is there another membership list somewhere?
  • Refuse,Resist what's our motto... NO!!!
    Craig Finnerty, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The tyrannists of the USSR (MVD, NKVD, whatever) only had inefficient paper-based internal passports with which to try to control their victims. How amateurish! Britain's biometric ID cards will allow our own commissars total and absolute control of every aspect of our lives.
    This villainy must be stopped at all costs.
    Ken Mackenzie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What amazes and horrifies me is that Blair will probably push this nightmarish legislation through on the 28th June despite all the evidence that it is unwanted, unworkable and the beginning of the end for our country. If millions of people actually on the street couldn't stop the Iraq war can this ego maniac be stopped in his tracks by ANYTHING? It seems that all our representatives in Parliament simply melt in his radiant light and lie down before him (on our behalf), so he can tread their faces into the ground.

    And when it goes to the Lords (packed with his people) even if they manage to clobber it somehow he, The Lord, will use the Parliament Act again. If it was used for Foxhunting its certainly worth dusting off again for Totalitarianism!
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Will this pledge stop at 10 000 or will it continue until it finishes in october?? The Second reading is tomorrow BTW
    Adam Edwards, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I love the fact that the government thinks they can make this stupid card compulsory. Are they really saying that they will go to the door of every single person who refuses to carry one and force them down to some centre to have all their bodily details taken? Are they then going to force me to hand over cash/go into my bank account/freeze all my money until I pay up? When they can't even find people to pay their council tax (surely a more pressing and immediate issue) how the heck are they supposed to find someone without an ID card?

    In what way exactly is it going to be complusory anyway, when I won't even have to carry it at all times? Are they going to demand to see it when I enter the country from holiday? Kind of negates the need for a passport. If they're going to insist on a biometric passport, what's the need for an additional card?

    The entire issue is utterly ridiculous, pointless and a collosal waste of money. Can anyone else say Millenium Dome????
    Kay McLellan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Privacy aside, or for those who believe you that if you have done no wrong then you have nothing to hide; I.D. cards can be used to validate a fraudulent I.D. What then is their point?
    Gregg Elliott, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think the Govt have underestimated how passionately we feel about this issue. The people have had enough, the Govt are becoming the enemy and there will be extreme unrest.
    Darren Eddy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Gregg,

    you think only people with something to hide will be objecting to this? It is not about hiding things. It is about freedoms being taken away.

    For example. I currently have the freedom to walk around in this country with, for example, just a pair of shorts and sandles on my feet. No need to carry wallets or ID with me.

    In the future this may no longer be the case, as we face a police state, where we can be stopped and checked at any time, and fine us if we fail to show ID. We cannot protect ourselves from being turned into a totalitarian state by turning ourselves into a totalitarian state. That is like injecting herion in order to prevent yourself from being spiked with herion... :/
  • When a former head of anti-terrorism at Scotland Yard says "I have a horrible feeling that we are sinking into a police state", then it's time to get very worried. He was talking about imprisonment without trial, but ID cards are part of the same very scary trend.

    Thank you for organising the pledge - and please treat my £10 as a downpayment - if you need more, just ask...
  • I want a choice about big brother.
    At the moment I choose to not watch it on TV.
    Despite the fact that people vote and pay taxes, Tony Blair didn't listen when hundreds of thousands of people marched in protest against the war in Iraq and now he's not listening to the ID card issue.
    Maybe he needs some Q-tips, or an ear syringe.
    B1ffster, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's great to see so many like-minded people signing this pledge. Does anyone know the current total? And can we keep the pledge going until this corrupt government actually tries to bring this sham into practice? At the current rate of signatures, I think we'd have half the population by then.

    Keep them coming, Phil.
    Paul Muskett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not a number. My identity is mine - it doesn't belong to any damned government. I won't be going along to any government building to be fingerprinted, scanned, DNA'd and filed.

    Be seeing you
    g.tranda, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Why not just make it a legal requirement to have a reasonable grounds for leaving your house. The ID scheme would help to administer this new law and the Police could be given the power to order you home or arrest you if they are not convinced that your purposes are reasonable or necessary. Perhaps they could publish a list of approved activites which were not generally questioned by the authorities - binge drinking, earning taxable income and government recommended leisure activites - no blood sports, no competitive sports, no target sports (unless you are in Iraq or Iran or Korea), could be good start. Low crime, very little for the Police to do and a Government that prove how tough they were on crime and the causes of crime. As long as you participate in legally approved activities you would have nothing to fear. Only the paranoid would object.

    Minor infringments could be easily dealt with with on the spot fines, deducted at source from your monthly allowance. Your Monthly Allowance would be the amount of disposable income your employment status allowed you - the most effective way to combat tax evasion would be to take all of your earnings, deduct your taxes and other stoppages and then transfer the allowance to your bank account. Working for the State could attract low stoppages and other benefits.

    This scheme in its present form has the potential to cut down on all sorts of crimes but at what cost to liberty? Liberty is something you have to fight to preserve, you do not keep freedom by simply getting on with your life and never risking punishment by questioning the governments right to herd you like sheep. Sheep are bred to be stupid and to follow the herd and are naturally fearlful of the shepards dog - think about it.
    Matthew Wilkinson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This issue has arisen because our Parlimentary system is weighted in such a way as to protect us from a Monarch who wants all of the power but not a Prime Minister. We have no effective way of checking an out of control government, Cromwell forgot to consider a future with New Labour in power. The Queen in her Coronation Oath pledged her commitment to our laws and traditions but will not reign in an out of control government (her government by the way) Unfortunatley the wrong person as PM with a large majority becomes head of state effectively with Parliment there to rubber stamp thier laws. We are experiencing a situation not too dissimilar to the state that existed prior the English Civil War - we have come full circle in our experiment in democracy. We will experience history in the making and we will be able to tell our grandchildren we were there.
    Matthew Wilkinson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You're right, Matthew, and I think I might have to withdraw my pledge. After all, the ID card will protect everyone against dire crimes such as "Looking A Bit Odd In A Public Place", "Being A Bit Strange As Far As I Can Make Out", "Driving About At Four In The Morning Without A Valid Reason" and "Being Unkempt With Malice Aforethought". Oh, and that old favourite "Not Being Able To Explain Himself".

    I'm so glad I've seen the light. I think I'll have to go down to Parliament Square tomorrow to convince everyone else.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Paul Muskett: the current total is at the top of the page in the purple section on the top left, under the NO2ID logo. It currently reads

    5,622 people have signed up, 4378 more needed

    but by the time you read this will hopefully say even more have signed.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Live free or die!
    DAMIEN, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards, especially of the biometric variety have no place in a free society.This is the beginning of our all being wired to one Great Machine. This machine is the hideous, control-hungry fantasy of all corrupted governments who have forgotten that their purpose and duty is to serve the people, not vice-versa.

    "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
    ~Benjamin Franklin

    A large number of people now seem to feel more threatened by their own government than they do by the forces they are alleging protection from. Yes, I'll pledge.
    emmett elvin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
    andi stephen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Im a free English man, and I don't need a piece of plastic to make me a 'valid' person.
    James Elsdon-Baker, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We carry credit cards, shop cards, NHS cards, debit cards, driving licences, why not another one? Whilst much more information is held about us than we already think, the idea of a database holding everything about me available to anyone with access to such a database, and possibly for a fee as has been suggested, is not on. ID cards did not stop the Madrid bombing, they have them in Spain. With currently held data - why do we need more - and at what cost? There are darker sides to this scheme as yet not revealed. No, I do not want my already invaded privacy further breached at any cost. Do I have anything to hide? No, nothing - and I do not need to prove it to anyone. Orwell's 1984 is kindergarten compared to 2005.
    Derek Reynolds, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not young. I am not old, but not young. So if at some point in the future these identity cards or whatever they lead to should come to pass I will probably be dead or so far gone that I won't care one way or the other. So probably it's the "younger" generation that might suffer the potentially disasterous consequences if the current generation allows the current British Government to get away with introducing these proposed cards. Are they the brain child of the New World Orderists in the US anyway I ask myself? The brainchild of Tony's friend George and those who pull Georges strings in the US? Of whom I have no doubt Blair and his fellow cronies in the current British minority elected Goverment are fully paid up members! Our fellow European neighbors DO have identity cards and have for some time but I don't believe those cards possess the same degree of individual "chipping"-represented by the proposed Blair and cos identity card- Of course the Europeans might decide to follow the suit of the Brits-or maybe not. I dare say there are many in the US establishment that would like the Europeans to be equally "chipped" to the same degree as the BG is planning for it's citizens. So I don't favour identity cards. The reason I don't favour such cards is because they would give too much power over us all to people like Blair and his cronies-they are liars we know that already, they are ultimately answerable to forces in the US, they offer far too much control and power to the police to rule us as they will, or as a totalliatarian goverment might want. And by way-I thought democracy was the rule of the majority? The party that most people voted for. But hang on a minute-most people DIDN'T vote for Blair and his cronies-in other words the majority of British voters DID NOT vote for this current government!Yet they are ruling the roost! (And want to rule and control us all scrupulously through comuterised identity cards). Is that democracy?
    Beagle La Blow, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It strikes me that without a Biometric passport we will be imprisoned within our country. With one we are imprisoned within a computer database system. When did we lose freedom? I would guess around 1948.

    The answers still no.
    Derek Reynolds, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks.

    I can't afford it, but it will still be the most important £10 I've ever spent.

    As far as people (like la Blow, above) saying 'this is Labour/Blair politiking' - do you really think the tories would pass up a chance like this for a huge step towards total information control?

    Nice to see so many people against this. Thanks everyone.
    The Dark Shirt, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The whole idea of a bimotric ID card has me horrified. A plan for a national DNA database was abndoned some years ago largely due to the possibility of abuse and unfeasability of setting-up such a scheme. Now it seems a weakened government is determined to push through possibly the most illiberal piece of legislation of the last 50 years. The scope for abuse is massive. And why do we need such and all encompassing ID card anyway? We are monitored constantly: phone companies know who we call, ISP's know which websites we visit and who we email, libraries know what books we read, credit card companies know what we buy, banks know our financial details, the NHS knows our health details, the revenue services know where we aork and how much tax we pay, and CCTV records our movements in almost every town and city centre. Do we really need a one-stop-shop for identity theft? Do we all trust this government or future governments not to abuse the database by selling it to commercial sources or using it to spy on the population? It all has the whiff of some science fiction dystopia of which I do not want to be part. There are no obvious benefits in terms of security as the Madrid bombing demonstrates (Spain has ID cards). And how will public services be better delivered with an ID card? If the card is lost your entire identity goes with it. WHay don't they just go the whole hog and have us microchipped like they do with rescue dogs. On top of it all they want us to pay for the privilege of being monitored constantly! They say costs will not spiral but already we know that the administration of the scheme will go to compulsory competitive tendering and we all jknow what a success that has been in delivering nutritious school meals, clean hospitals, and tax credits.
  • I have commented before, but I would just like to restress that I will absolutly refuse to co-operate with this draconian, ill thought out and above all dangerous piece of legislation.

    I will not carry a card and I do not recognise the authority of anyone who compels me to. I am not state property and do not need an audit trail to prove that I exist.

    For those who are interested, I have put my letter to my MP together with his response + my comments on my website - http://www.dushka.co.uk/icewing/articles...
  • I will refuse to submit to fingerprinting or eye scanning. I see no reason why the goverment needs yet another way to keep tabs on its citizens. ID cards will not help our immigration problems in any way. If it comes to it, I would be willing to take direct action against the implementation of the scheme. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in my views.
    Robert Morgan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This frightening legislation must be stopped, it's another good reason for me to leave this country and big brother for good. What next?
    Mark Andrew Whale, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Phil, good to hear you on Radio 5 live again this morning and even better to hear that the majority of people phoning in were definitely not in favour.

    Looking at the signup graph it's clear this sort of promotion is making a massive difference. Keep up the good work.

    I wish I could join you outside HoP but if I skive off work and lose my job I wont be able to afford the £10 !
    Russell Baum, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I would rather serve a prison sentence than sign up for an ID card.
    diane riley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My objection to the cards is not practical or financial. I oppose them because I do not believe the state and its agents should be able to compel you to carry an identity card, nor should they be allowed to gather large amounts of information about citizens. Although at the moment we have a reasonably benign government in terms of domestic policy this will not always be the case. You only need to consider what use the Thatcher government would have made of these cards during the miner's strike to see what the dangers are.

    I believe that an important principal; is at stake here, and we owe it to our children and to the memory of those who died for our freedoms in the last war not to surrender our liberty like this.
    christopher evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just to correct a point "Chuck Norris" made, stating that the Police DNA database only has Convicted Criminals on it.

    First they added the Convicted Criminals.

    Then they added the Charged (even if found innocent)
    http://www.privacyinternational.org/arti...

    Then they added the Arrested (even if not charged)
    http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/p...

    Then they added the Witnesses (even if not suspected of a crime)
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4222... (Volunteers only and they promise to destroy the records afterwards - but they used to promise that for those found innocent!) I give it about 4 more major murder investigations before they start pushing to keep the witnesses dna.

    It has been sugested that they should have the "Power to use fingerprints/DNA taken covertly for speculative searches to confirm or disprove a person’s involvement in an offence." http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/Polic...

    They have also used the DNA of family members to find and later convict a person that was not on the system. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?i...

    In case people are thinking that this is irrelevent to ID-cards, it is only a matter of time before they discover that DNA is a better biometric to use (as it does not change over time), and for hardware to become available to allow DNA reading in minutes. At which point the ID card system will likely start to change over, after all only the readers and some software will need changing, all the personnel, offices, communications systems etc will exist.

    These changes in the DNA datebase is also an example of a variant of function creep once a system is in place.
    Thurstan R. McDougle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You guys have been watching too many x-files - chill!!! It's a tiny, barely noticeable card just like your other cards. Compare that to a terrorist explosion killing your loved ones - I know which one I'd choose.

    Actually I'm quite suspicious of those who are so strongly against ID cards... something to hide perhaps...? heh heh heh

    I'll admit that charging people to get one is a bit of a cheek though!
    Jessica, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't see why an id card should carry so much other data about me and cost the country and individuals so much money to implement. There hasn't been a successful Govt IT initiative yet that hasn't gone massively over budget and hasn't been dogged with problems.
    Louise Oldfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I choose to carry "all my other cards". It is not illegal not to have "all my other cards". It is not illegal to refuse to produce any of "my other cards" on demand at someone else's say-so.
    As such it is far from being "a tiny, barely noticeable card just like all my other cards".

    And even the government have given up on the unsustainable "anti-terrorism" angle.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I refuse to be forced to carry an ID Card and I will especially not be forced to pay for one.

    Even if our spineless MP's can't stop them, this protest HAS to work for the good of our country and its democratic future.

    Blair has to listen to us as he pointedly refused to do over the war.

    We have to stop New Labours Stalinist ambitions.
    Darren Richard Holden, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The bottom line is, not whether we have something to hide but, do we trust this government?
    Gerry Noble, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My identity belongs to me, not the state. Apart from the technical difficulties, the introduction of ID cards will subtly change this relationship. Although subtle, the possible consequences of this change are enormous.

    At the moment I carry a number of forms of 'identity', each of which allows me to use a privilege which I have paid for in one way or the other. This, to me, is perfectly acceptable. But my identity is not a privilege, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

    I would like everyone to reflect what it would mean if the government became the custodian of your identity. It becomes something they allow you to use, on production of a card. Your hard won rights as a citizen then gradually become privileges granted to you by the state.

    Would you trust the government, any government, including those yet to come, with this power?
    Dennis Smithers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Better dead than read!
    Gerry Noble, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Jessica:

    It's only a small yellow star, barely noticable, chill! It's OK, because it's the government monitoring you, and the state never abuses it's power. Compare deaths and abuse from terrorism with deaths and abuse resulting from state actions sometime. Then do a risk assessment.

    How will an ID card stop a terrorist explosion? Most front line terrorists have no prior criminal record. They look like your neighbor. They have valid ID. They don't go out of their way to stand out, for some reason.

    There is a difference between not having anything to hide, and granting the right for someone to watch you continously, just in case. There used to be this thing called innocent until proven guilty, and the right to privacy. To invade someone's privacy, you had to get a warrant and show a good reason why you needed it.

    I'm quite suspicious of people who are happy to have their privacy invaded when *no justifable reason for the invasion has been presented*. What's going on there?
    Matt Palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well said, Matt, but I do disagree about one point you made: "I'm quite suspicious of people who are happy to have their privacy invaded when *no justifable reason for the invasion has been presented*"

    I have no problem at all with someone deciding they're happy to have their own privacy invaded. Jessica can, for all I care, post her bank statements on every tree in her street, can stick a copy of her medical records in her front window, can set up a CCTV in her living room and fly a blimp over Wimbledon towing lists of her past addresses, phone numbers and mobile numbers going back for the past 10 years if she likes. Since she presumably has nothing to hide I'm sure she wouldn't mind doing this. Personally I really couldn't care less whether she does or not.

    What I do object to is *my* privacy being invaded without my consent and with no justfication. No thanks.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have just signed the pledge and urge all those that have to get a friend or a relative or as many people as possible to do the same. If this morally corrupt government and those belonging to the so-called 'opposistion' push through the scheme we must mount full scale protests at the injustice of having our lives and liberties reduced to data files on some government computer
    Alex Tootal, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I aleady carry my ID in the form of my persona, eyes, DNA, fingerprints, etc. Why an earth would I also need a card that sumarises the same information? Btw, a national database of ID's would mostly be a collation of what is already on a database somewhere, so I'm prepared to accept a national database. It's the ID card, which will be a farcical summary of the database entry, that I object to.
    Ian Pringle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jessica, our country endured plenty of Irish terrorists' explosions back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, yet the government didn't introduce ID cards.

    And no, I don't have anything to hide -- which is why it's nobody's business but my own! Can you be so sure about our leader, Bush's best buddy, Tony B. Liar?
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Absolutely appalling proposal, demonstrated rather painfully this morning by both the unprincipled Conservatives (who agree with the principle of ID cards) and Clarke himself - once again - shifting reasons, and making many misleading points trying to support his position.

    I've made an analysis of sorts here: http://www.leyton.org/diary/2005/06/28/i...
  • Pardon me, but is an Orwellian police state NOT terrorism? I don't care if the government gives me a grand for signing up for a card, let alone forking out a week's wages for the "privilege", I will NEVER carry an ID card. I will go to prison or take Somalian citizenship before I decide to be a NUMBER and not a MAN! Oh, and while we're at it, let's reclaim all the other liberties won over the last thousand years by dead heroes and now STOLEN by Blair & Co. As THE CLASH sang - "When the law breaks in, how you gonna come? With your hands above your heads or on the trigger of your gun?"
    Kenneth MacInnes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • <i>Actually I'm quite suspicious of those who are so strongly against ID cards... something to hide perhaps...? heh heh heh</i>

    Yeah, actually. For instance - one victim of rape explained in a debate I attended how vulnerable she would feel if every time she needed to contact the police, they checked her record and revisited this episode (as they would be able to under the new ID and data register scheme).

    The reason it's called private life, is that sometimes people need the option of keeping it private.

    By the way, Jessica, if you're so keen for the rest of us to have ID cards, do you mind if we send you the bill?

    Anyway, how heartening to see so many people here determined at last to resist the ongoing encroachment of civil liberties - some of them won as early as the 17th century, now just tossed away to the mercy of the Home Office, a government department notrious for its incompetence and petty cruelty.

    We know our identities, and we don't need a card!
  • I want a camera in Jessica's bedroom, to be monitored at all times. If she objects to this idea, she's obviously suspicious.

    After all, if she has nothing to hide...
    Name withheld, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to the challenging comment about putting a camera in Jessica's bedroom (as she apparently has 'nothing to hide'): She might enjoy that, because nowadays there seems to be nothing people want more than to reveal as much about themselves in public as they possibly can (bawling mobile phone users in buses and trains; people shouting to each other in the street as against talking as they did before, 'ordinary people' telling all on television, etc.)

    However the manipulated masses don't realise that these things are all part of the softening up process this Machiavellian government is carrying out. Do you think it a coincidence that one of the most popular tv shows 'Big Brother'- with cameras almost in the beds to show the couplings, let alone in the drawing room, sitting room, garden, bathroom, toilet and you name it ----is called 'Big Brother'?

    So as I say, Jessica might feel she was getting her fifteen minutes of fame promised everyone by Andy Warhol (and taken on board by the manipulators of our lives) if the cameras start rolling into her bedroom. The only problem is that they won't be there for just fifteen minutes; they'll be there for ever if this evil government gets its way which thanks to our gutless spineless MPs I am sure they will.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It really is heartening to see the number of people supporting this pledge, and the amount of media coverage this issue is (finally) getting. I for one will certainly not be co-operating with this repressive, uncosted, ill-thought out scheme, and I'm glad I'm not alone. If they aren't careful this could shape up to be Labours poll tax.
    Robert Ringrow, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will not agree to compulsory ID cards..

    the idea is completely sick and if we let it happen we are heading for a very scary future where human beings will be reduced further to numbers in a computer system, under the complete and automated control of our government.

    It will be microchip implants next. people have to say NO now
  • I'll go to jail before I have to carry a biometric ID card.
    Jeff Lebowski, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "ID Cards...a bulwark against the Big Brother society...it's a very serious point." Charlie Clarke in the ID debate in the Commons today. Gobbledeygook of the highest order. Only a True Bliarite could come away with such arrant crap. However as Eleanor Goodman (Ch4News tonight) said she detects "no genuine blood lust" among even those Lab MP's who are notionally against the bill. So it will pass it's second reading thanks to the supine morons so recently elected and re-elected to the New Labour benches. The most closely reasoned and rational arguments have all come from opponents of the bill. The most flawed and flaccid from the proponents. At 56 years of age I have absolutely no fear of the so-called powers of the state. I will not register for one of their bloody ID cards, there is nothing any Government can do to force me to do so, and as for the prospect of having my 'liberty' taken away from me for so refusing - well, like ID cards themselves, it's simply part-and- parcel of the constant erosion of personal 'liberties' which that megalomaniac Bliar has fostered since 2001. I am confident that not too long after their introduction, they will offer an excellent Blue Skies Thinking alternative. That of having all the info transplanted beneath the skin of every British subject on the premise that it will 'help' people not to lose their ID. Rather like the chip my deceased dog used to have. I used to worry about the apparently willing tendency of the British public to sleepwalk towards the emasculation of such 'rights' as we were supposed to hold. I'm way beyond that concern these days. A majority would seem to delight in any prospect that technology can rule their lives. The return to serfdom of the medieval period is well under way. Unlike our forbears however, the current and future generations will not be able to escape the complete grip the state holds over them. Because the will, the individual intellect, simply isn't there any more. In fact the will to individuality and the right to personal privacy is dead. The sooner there are ten thousand of us the better. We won't convince the brain dead that we are 'right' - but my christ will we be able to screw the government and the law about royally. Probably the best tenner I'll ever have spent.
    charles michael bell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This *so* reminds me of the groundswell that built up against the Poll Tax all those years ago - this is going to be fun! So long as we win, that is. Not much fun if we don't...
  • A couple of weeks ago I answered the door to a couple of police who were looking for someone. I cheerfully (and truthfully) informed them that as far as I knew nobody of that name had ever lived in my house (doesn't say much for the quality of their data, eh?), and volunteered my own name.

    If this bill is passed, and a similar scenario happens in a few years time, when the police ask me about the identities of the people who live in my house, not only will I refuse to tell them my name or the details of any other residents, I won't give them my ID card (since I've pledged not to have one) and I'll ask them to remove themselves from my property unless they have a warrant, or feel like arresting me.

    Policing only works by consent. I wonder if the government has factored in the cost of public non-cooperation.
    Philip Hands, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Do I understand that if I refuse to carry an ID card then I will not be able to benefit from any of the State Systems? Well bring them on! Because if I don't benefit neither will I contribute.
    Robin Prior, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There's an on-line poll on the BBC which may be of interest.
    http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_p...
    bill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I had to practically plead with the UK police to take my fingerprints in 1997 to get a passport renewal (I'm originally from South Africa) , and now they want to store everyone's fingerprints and more electronically.
    What a U-Turn!
    If this goes through. there will be human rights abuses, unlawful imprisonments during investigations (you were somewhere at the wrong time but innocent) and organised crime will definitely abuse it. I say no! but they'll probably push it through anyway.

    Democracy ? Freedom ? Where ?
    Not Entered, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • First ID cards then compulsory ID cards. Creating a 'surveillance society' is the first step towards creating a 'police state' in which our whereabouts and actions will always be known. Innocent 'law abiding' people who refuse to comply will be criminalised and their lives will be made very difficult.

    Despite his obsession with ID cards B-liar does not see people as citizens with rights, freedoms and responsibilities but as his 'subjects' who must be homogenised, coerced and controlled. Perhaps it is time to demand a written British Constitution in which or rights and freedoms are defined and protected.

    I will refuse to carry an ID card but I would rather not have to face that scenario - this legislation should NEVER be passed. All opponents of this legislation living in a Labour constituency should swamp their MP with protests. I did not vote for this government nor could I, in all conscience, ever vote for the labour party again despite being a lifelong socialist.
    Chris Leavold, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am truly heartened to see the determination expressed here, and particularly to see The Declaration of Arbroath quoted earlier. This is not the country whose principles and freedoms my ancestors fought and died for. I, for one, will fight this by any means necessary. If the appalling Blairite Stalinist/Fascist regime want to make a criminal of me, so be it - like everything else, I will do that to the best of my ability as well. I thought Thatcher was bad but this amounts to an "Existence Tax". I will not obey.
    Malcolm Pasley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will not attend any compulsory meeting relating to an ID card.
    I will not pay any money for an ID card.
    I will not ever carry an ID card.
    And most importantly, I WILL NEVER AGAIN VOTE LABOUR despite being a lifelong Labour supporter.
    Shame on this government, shame!
    Gary Poole, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just no way! The whole things stinks of something very, very dodgy. Reeks to high heaven. A bunch of suits who are just so desperate to make any kind of legislation.
    Very scary.
    John A, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally and unequivocally oppose mandatory ID cards, the use of biometric data, and the national identity database. If I have nothing to hide, why should I have to prove that in a supposedly free country? This Government - and political parties of all colours - need to realise that they are our servants, not the other way round.

    Arguements that ID cards will prevent crime, terrorism, benefit fraud and illegal immigration are entirely fallacious. Can you imagine a house breaker making sure that they take their ID card with them before entering your property? In fact all this will do is start a new black market in forged cards and identites. The money being wasted on these proposals should be spent on Police on our streets, better street lighting, and social welfare and educational programmes. That would be a real benefit to this country.

    ID cards are an unnecessary and expensive folly.
    Howard Sargent, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There are many good reasons to not have an id card but here's one that I found most sinister whilst I was living in France where the've had them for some time.

    My French friend told me that they never discuss politics in public and never ever tell anyone who they are voting for especially in local elections.
    The reason being that if you vote for the party that loses you will find that everything that you require from the Government, council or mayor such as passports, welfare, work permits and a thousand other things go on a massive go slow or don't get processed at all as the party in power vindicate those who didn't vote for them.

    If we have these foul intrusions upon our liberties blessed upon us by this dishonourable bunch of gangsters (the Goverment) then it won't be long before freedom of speech is stifled (as in France) as well. We will be well and truly nothing more than numbers to be exterminated or stifled at will.

    If one thinks that's a bit strong, look what happened to Dr kelly RIP, when he tried to voice his opinion on WMD.
    Steve lane, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 314 to 283. Majority 31. A majority of the Govt obviously cannot represent our interests - and couldn't give a blue **** about what we believe abhorrent either. All the more reason that we represent ourselves. 10,000 signatories x £10 quid is small pittance to pay by objectors.
    charles michael bell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nothing to be gained from this. Much better to put money (and governmental creative energy) constructively into better housing education & social facilities, real job creation, supporting people in prison.... (and doing something sensible with the millenium dome).
    Linnet Evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 314 to 283. Majority 31.

    Irrelevant.

    You are under no obligation to obey a law that is wrong, just as this legislation is wrong.

    No sensible person can think that the whole relationship between government and the governed should be changed by a majority of 31.

    This scheme will fail due to mass non compliance, just like the poll tax did.

    No one talks about the power of non compliance, because it is so very dangerous; people refuse to pay, and the government....the entire system collaspses. That is very dangerous indeed.

    It is clear that we must all now not only refuse individually, but also make sure that everyone else we know also refuses.

    We must also never pay for any service that demands that you show ID to be served. We must start with the banks. I have witnessed myself that they ALWAYS give in when you threaten to take your money away. All merchants will disavow ID cards if we all refuse to transact with them should they demand ID from us.

    We can destroy this scheme and the illigitimate government that brought it in simply by refusing to comply.

    I cant wait to see them burn!
    Alex De Large, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • thank heavens others can see whats going on I thought I was loing it, looks like im going to prison because I will not have one even if they were
    free, whats next chips in your arms,
    no matter what it takes no way.
    Wayne
    w.halderson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The plan, Robin, as the Regulatory Impact Assessment makes clear, is to stop you carrying out any significant private transactions either. Submit to surveillance or starve!

    This is a defence, according to Mr Clarke, against "the Big Brother society". Which has to be the most starling untruth uttered by any politician since "Comical Ali" retired as Saddam's spokesman.
  • re Jessica:

    Jessica, sorry for coming back at you like that, you sound like a nice person. There are serious issues to be discussed here. That's not the way we will win this debate.
    Matt Palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just to Add, Barnet Borough Council voted against ID cards tonight :). Pity about the commons vote though
    Adam Edwards, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Could you give details of that, Adam? I live in leafy Barnet too. Perhaps if approached they might consider supporting NO2ID along with the other local authorities on http://www.no2id.net/about/supporters.php
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The motion is in the agenda for Full Council Tuesday 28th June 2005 - should be available via the council website. Not sure if the tory administration will go as far as backing NO2ID campaign proper, though I doubt mentioning they're against them now won't go amiss.
    Adam Edwards, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The differences between Winston Churchill and Tony Blair.

    1 Churchill abolished ID cards, Blair is reintroducing ID cards.

    2 Churchill was voted the Greatest Briton, Blair will be the most hated Briton.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I resigned my Labour party membership today after seeing blair once again trumpeting the ID card (conspicuously not mentioning NIR!) I was a party member for over half my life (When I joined Thatcher was still in power and I was 18 years old – you do the math’s)

    When Id cards and the NIR were first proposed I swore blind that I would not have one under any circumstances. It’s nice to know that there are 9,999 other people supporting you and chipping in to a £100,000 legal fund should I be prosecuted!

    I will go gladly to Gaol (proper English spelling of “jail” which is not recognized by Microsoft!) rather than have one of these abominations.

    Ten pounds is a very small price to pay for freedom. Should this ridiculous legislation ever get passed I will pledge £10 per month until it is repealed! I reckon I will still have change from the first tenner!
    Joe Kavanagh, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is riduculous: the ITER (nuclear fusion) project which was also agreed today will cost only 4 billion euros. So, we are spending more on ID cards than on solving the world's energy crisis! Even more stupidly, we could fix the terrorism issue at a stroke if we could just stop our reliance on middle-eastern oil.
    Richard Neill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i'm always deeply concerned when people opposed to the i.d. card scheme propose instead that the money wasted here would be better spent on more police, etc. favouring one form of surveillance and state control for another is not a rational alternative: "i oppose the police state, so let's hire 10,000 more!" no!

    we live in a cctv, speed camera culture, we have precious enough freedom as it is. but true freedom in a country is only achieved through the acceptance of personal responsibility. it's as simple as that. banning smoking, fox hunting, even clamping down on binge drinking are all symptoms of a more general malaise...that we're not capable of controlling our own behaviour so we need a government who will on our behalf.

    we all know the old aphorism that we only get the government we deserve. sadly, i think it's true.

    no to i.d. cards!
    J.S., 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This govt is privatising the NHS by stealth (ask a hospital radiologist how many NHS as opposed to private patients they see nowadays) giving away schools to any business with a few quid to put down, doing all it can to do away with social housing and prosecuting an illegal war. This govt. wants to do anything it can to crush and fragment opposition, and that is why they want the ID card. I believe we need a real socialist party to mobilise opposition to this govt and bring it down. I am a pensioner, about to become a grandmother twice over. I will not sell my grandchildrens' birthright.Please can Liberty make a badge saying I will not register for an ID card? 10,000 people wearing one of these might make a good start.And may I make a special plea to pensioners? Court cases against pensioners always make the headlines, don't they? And nothing make the govt look bad like threatening little old ladies. So please get behind this pledge. Stella
    stella hargreaves, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My father fought in The Great Patriotic War to defeat an evil empire which had instituted the ID card system. It is a great dishonour to those who sacrifised so much to allow these nazis to re-institute this tyrranical evil. Then they used the Reichstag fire, today 9/11. Death to the ID card! Death to fascism!
    Jim S., 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Most of yesterday`s the news coverage was dominated by the Naval Review / celebrations of the Battle of Trafalgar. The ID cards debate received a small fraction of coverage. It`s ironic that so much coverage was given to a battle for freedom 200 years ago, and so little to the freedom soon to be put on a short leash.

    I watched the Commons debate on the ID card / database schemes, and nothing that was said has changed my opinion that this this scheme will be bad for everyone except the government, who have yet again come up with a privacy-destroying, money-making control device.

    The more that can be done to raise awareness of the privacy implications of these schemes the better.

    I will never sign up to Blair and Clarke`s power trip.
  • J.S. wrote that he/she was concerned that some of us have suggested that more police would be a better thing and this goes against the same principles of the ID cards. It most certainly does not. The friendly face of policing has gone in this country. There are few, if any, community minded police in operation now and all policing is done "at a distance" with computer logic behind the decision to arrest/detain. There is no opportunity to show leniency or to exercise common sense when dealing with issues. More bobbies on the beat would help but it would also require a good selection process to weed out people who cannot make informed decisions about situations. I guess i am talking about an ideal scenario.

    I am also against a police state. We do need to stand together here. The issue is ID cards, everything else is irrelevant. ID cards are wrong in so many ways.

    I also noticed last night that it will be illegal to have someone elses card on your person without good cause, so you carry your girlfriends card for here after being out at a club one night, see her home and forget to give her her card back. You could then be stopped and arrested for having her card! Obscene is an understatement!

    Furthermore, how are the people that will work with the information in the offices of the ID system be vetted to ensure they are not criminals?

    How long will it be before the data entry is outsourced to India?

    The commons debate was also a farce last night, as nothing of any importance was discussed and the reasons for intrdocution of the cards are as flimsy as ever!

    Enough of my non-sequiturs... on with the fight to stop this.
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Anyone that believes that introducing ID cards will deal with issues regarding people that work illegally and do not hold or declare passport's is living in cloud cuckoo land. The government might however make money from fining those indigenous of us that forget or lose this panacea ID card... No bomb carrying without ID please!

    The government should get on with effectively sorting genuine country issues out without recourse to bashing civil liberties and squandering the ordinary decent working man's taxes on pointless tiers of expensive bureaucracy. Just ask Stalin!
    D Evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The main reason I'm going to say "no" to carrying an ID card -- I have 3 children and if we don't make a stand now they'll wake up in 20 years time to find themselves living in a global police state.
    Allison Nancholas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'd too rather give my £93 here to help stop this draconian madness.
    Id be against this bill even if id cards were free (yeah..as if!)
    I am currently living in sweden and this year am eligible to be a citizen...Im thinking about it seriously now. Even though I would like to return to live and work in UK, I am having serious second doubts after seeing the governments past behaviour on everything from David Kelly, the Iraq war, new road pricing scheme and now this IDcard bill.
    I hope this can be stopped like the Poll tax was.
    Everyone here must spread news of this NoIDcard support site in every possible way, email signatures, websites, flyers etc...
    darren, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well,theres a suprise-the government have got this through parliment....by the use of whips(or backhanders).
    This was always going to get through,because after all,its not Herr Tony`s plan,but the globalist agenda to create a global police state surveillance system,to control us all.
    TIME TO WRITE TO THE LORDS THEN PEOPLE!!

    RESIST RESIST RESIST
    Jonathan Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The bill that's just passed its second reading includes this:

    "The things that an individual may be required to do under subsection (4) are—

    (a) to attend at a specified place and time;

    (b) to allow his fingerprints, and other biometric information about himself, to be taken and recorded;

    (c) to allow himself to be photographed;

    (d) otherwise to provide such information as may be required by the Secretary of State."

    That sounds like a photo-opportunity to me. At the required day and time, turn up at the specified place and then calmly and peacefully protest against and resist points b) through d). If several people do this at the same time in each place (organised in advance via internet), in the presence of forewarned local press, it could be quite effective. Peaceful protest and articulate explanation of one's reasons need to be paramount throughout.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well, they got the second reading through - but only just. It's a majority that can be overturned so we should all get writing to our MPS to ensure that they know we aren't going to take this lying down. Pleased to say that my MP saw sense and voted against this pernicious bill.
    Geoff Pryke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Section 13 (para 7) of the Bill from last night states "...references to a card having been tampered with include references to information in or on it having been modified...or copied or otherwise extracted."

    Therefore THE BILL ITSELF acknowledges that the ID Cards will not be secure. So what's the point of the whole exercise!?!

    This is an idea so bizarrely stupid that it's almost comical.
    Rohan Lightfoot, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Am I trapped in a Philip Dick book? Did I alter the course of history by reading too many of them in a radioactive frame of mind? I just can't believe we have gone so far so quickly. The lack of universal outrage at the Prevention of Terrorism and RIPA proposals obviously emboldened them, but is it really possible that such transparent twerps can really get away with this? Oh well, EDS will mess it up, but for how long will we be able to rely on that?
    Roger Borthwick, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In a post-script to the DNA database message I posted here is a quote from the MP Lynne Featherstone in the debate on ID cards yesterday ( http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?i... ):-
    "In south London, 1,000 voluntary DNA samples were wanted for a horrendous crime, but when 125 people refused to give DNA they received a letter telling them that their reasons for refusing would be investigated by a senior police officer. When five of them continued to refuse, they were arrested and the police were able to take their DNA, which was kept even though all five were released. That is how the voluntary principle works."
    Thurstan R. McDougle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's rather worrying that this proposed legislation has got this far. Feeling a little frustrated. Don't feel adequately represented by my MP. He has a record of pretty much voting with the governement all the time; and, yes, he voted with the government yesterday too. I wonder if writing to him actually made him think at all - did he even read the letter? Given his voting record I feel people in my area chose an automaton, not someone who will listen. But he has to change his mind on this one. I wonder if writing to him again will help, or make a sensible point of view look like it comes from strange obsessives? But it is heartening to see so many like-minded people who don't want this to happen.
    K Bearcock, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Don't lose sight of the EU biometrics requirement nonsence in new passports - or ID cards through the back door - which to my mind is just as abhorent as ID cards.
    g.tranda, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • People unite tell them to f**k off
    nothing will stop fraud or terrorism
    so it would be a waste of money and effort.
    We can defeat it just like the poll tax if we stand together, one world one people
    shaun powell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "We can see no benefits, huge cost and serious risks to civil liberties and privacy." - David Davis, Shadow home secretary.

    He went on to say that a future Tory government would scrap identity cards; good news as he's favourite to be their new leader, he would get my vote.

    However, it is well worth continuing to write to your Conservative MPs as well as Labour ones to ensure this statement is not forgotten, besides some of the older and crustier ones may not have got the message yet.
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm with Joe Kavanagh I will gladly donate £10 per month on top of my original pledge. Seems like a good insurance policy to me.

    My son has signed up on here too. He's only 13 but he can see the way this is going to mess up his and his peers future.

    I've been spreading the word via online forums that are discussing ID cards such as silicon.com. Hopefully if all us who are currently on the list can reach just one other person then we should easily smash the target set by Phil Booth.

    The one thing that frustrates me are the number of apethetic people around. I've tried to spread the word at work and get comments like "Whats the point the government will just push ID cards through anyway" and "I dont understand enough about ID cards to have an opinion"! It's no wonder Blair and crewe can do as they please with people like that voting for them.
    Duane Phillips, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID Cards? - Just say NO
    Tracy Dean, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What do you say to people who say "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear?"
    Matt Palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Now they don't have the Commies to scare people into giving up civil liberties its time for islam. They would have tried this under a different ploy if Bin Ladin hadn't given them this oppotunity. To$$ers.
    Alex Pickles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not really surprised by this move on ID cards. The government have planned this long before but they just needed an excuse to introduce it to the people. I challenge all the people to go to the above website(http://www.dubaibuzz.com/halaqahmedia.php) and listen to 'From the shadows: exposing the new world order'. Bearing in mind the tape was made around mid 1990's and they do mention about the goverment plan to introduce the ID cards. Open your eyes!
    Peace be unto those who follow true guidance
  • In response to MATT:
    What you say to the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' brigade is simple;
    You may think you have nothing to hide but what says the government agree.

    This card will eventually be linked to your bank accounts and other things, making it easier to collect money for things like 'on the spot fines' for dropping litter, being drunk, smoking in a public place, demonstrating or anything else they think should be outlawed.
    The nazis, sorry police officers, will just swipe your card and take the money, no court, no defence, no right of appeal just cough up and live with it.

    I will never carry one of these things, I won't even degrade myself into attending the cattle processing centre to have all my details taken.
    Rule Brittania, Britains never never never shall be slaves.
    AMEN
    Darren Newton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What do I say to those who argue 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear'?

    1. If I have nothing to hide, it's none of the government's business. Innocent until proven guilty; not "required to prove oneself innocent of criminal intent, otherwise assumed guilty".

    2. There's plenty to fear even if innocent.
    a) The technology is fallible in several ways and its operation is open to abuse in several ways. False accusations and false convictions are a certainty.
    b) These cards will waste the resources of the police and public services (by increasing crime as well as all the maintenance/admin costs), taking money away from where it's needed - that hurts all of us.

    3. Some people have things to hide which should not be available to anyone who can read a database (either its maintenance staff or hackers). People living legitimately under changed identities because of threat of violence, for example.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already carry enough ID. This bill is yet another scheme to reduce privacy for no demonstrable benefit to the public. There is no greater threat to civil liberties than lack of privacy. And we have to pay £££ for the privilege!

    Information is power; power is always, ALWAYS abused. I will not become Winston Smith.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In reponse to Darren Newton:

    I was reading on silicon.com yesterday that the government has not ruled out inserting RFID chips into the proposed ID cards. If that happens then not only will they know who you are but where you are too. Combine that with road taxing and GPS tracking and our very last vestiges of freedom will just disappear.

    I suppose it isnt so far fetched to take the next step and get rid of cash then everything you do can be tracked and even taxed!

    You know the odd job you do for your friend and for giving him a hand he gives you £10. With this new cash free society he will be able to electronically transfer the money to your bank via your new ID card. Government computers will monitor the card and see untaxed money passing through it and kerrrr-ching 25% deducted.

    Perhaps you innocently buy a basket of household chemicals bleach etc, in this new cash free society (All checkout operators will be made redundant. The goods you buy are RFID chipped and automatically logged against your ID card as you leave the store and the money electronically transfered through your ID card). Mixing these chemicals in a certain combination can be used to make bombs, but you have no knowledge of this. The next thing you know is the Armed Response Unit come crashing through your door and all you wanted to do was clean the bathroom!

    You check out a set of books at the library which you will do via your ID card (You'll just walk out of the library with the books as they have RFID chips in them too so can automatically log themselves against your card. All librarians will be made redundant.) The next thing you know you have a mob of MI5 agents watching your every move for being a subversive (we're probably already on some government hit list somewhere!)

    I'm sure all the above can be done now without ID cards but just think how much easier it will be to control us with RFID cards.

    One final word on RFID chips is that they can easily be blocked by wrapping them in tin foil. You may need this information in the future!

    Ladies and gentlemen this is the very thin end of the wedge. United we stand!

    RESIST RESIST RESIST
    Darren Newton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is anti-ID a religion? "I don't believe in ID, I believe in freedom"

    If so, could we gain protection from the government under it's odious new "religious hatred" law; yet more authoritarian legislation cracking down on civil liberties and freedom of speech and expression.

    I hate this government, are they going to pass a "political hatred" law and prosecute me next?
    Stuart Fotheringham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • After yesterdays confirmation by the government that RFID will play a role in the ID cards i point you all to this adress http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archiv...


    Just a thought.... :)
    Jonathan Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Stuart, look how since September 11th all those who dissent from the Bush/Blair line have been called "traitors", accused of being "on the terrorists' side". If that's not whipping up "political hatred" I don't know what is. The Treaty of Westphalia, the Geneva Conventions, Habeus Corpus, all gone or on the way out, and now ID cards -- what next?
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oliver. Yes, irritating isn't it?

    What's more that kind of thing is a textbook example of the false dichotomy fallacy.

    Not something I would expect from someone who studied law at Oxford :D
  • Not much to say except keep up the good work. the national I.D. card scheme is a pathetic waste of time, money and effort which could be spent on schools and hospitals. But i suppose spying and keeping tabs on everyone in the country is better than good health and education. Add another person to the list of people refusing the I.D cards.
    Ryan Smart, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As someone said, Oliver:

    "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."

    And as someone else said:

    "... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

    The two authors being Josef Göbbels and Hermann Göring respectively. Sadly what they said continues to be true.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Interesting info on RFID, thanks.
    Well for the first time in my life I think I can forsee the future. At some future date I will refuse to submit to this scheme, then I will refuse to pay the fines. One day soon after the police will kick down my door, arrest me, forcably take my details and chuck me in jail. Sounds like a nice society to live in doesn't it.
    Since 9/11 things have been moving quickly it seems, and I am now deeply suspicious of the official story of that event.
    I remember talking to my grandfather about wartime ID cards. When I asked him if he was pleased to see them withdrawn he said "oh, you have no idea how relieved we were. We hated the infernal things"
    Tim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'd like to sign this pledge, but with two small children I just can't afford to go to jail if it ever did come to that. I hate that I feel "bullied" that I couldn't protest in this way, but bottom line is that my kids *have* to come first.

    Happy to contribute to the pot though - and if there's others who are happy to protest but short on cash, maybe we can sort out a half pledge between us!
    Georgina, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Check out some of these articles at the following address.

    http://www.infowars.com/cashless_society...
    Marcus, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Georgina (and others) who perhaps don't feel comfortable overtly pledging to refuse ID cards, there is plenty of other things you can do, not least posting your support as you've done, but also writing to your MP (see http://www.writetothem.com and http://theyworkforyou.com ), plus drawing other people's attention - family, friends, colleagues, attention to the detail of this issue.
  • Gerogina,

    Just speaking out is a start. Better to raise your voice and be heard than sit bleating like some of the sheep I have come across. Just print off some flyers from here and pass them around. If you can just persuade one more to join then being here and saying something will have been worth something and you'll have done your part.

    Doesn't everyone find it scarey that we're sitting on the edge of the realms of conspiricy theories and all these websites that have been banging on about New World Orders other controlling organisations are begining to prove themselves right?
    Duane Phillips, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yep, I have written to my MP (who unfortunately is a complete waste of space - I never feel represented by him, he just sends me back a small forest about why he's completely ignoring my opinion no matter what the legislation in question) and get into discussions about ID cards at every opportunity.

    I realise too the difficulty of balance between protesting to protect your children's future while not damaging their present either (I know no-one has yet criticised this side of my hypocrisy, but I thought I'd pre-empt!) - does make me feel very humble about say, the suffragette movement, when I realise in the same position I don't think I could have put in the same commitment to the cause.
    Georgina, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Folks, it's rant time...

    I am sick of this "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" garbage! As I have nothing to hide, I have no reason to submit to a police state - end of story!

    I fully expect to be arrested and potentially jailed for refusing the ID scheme in the future, and I accept this risk because the alternative (being subjected to biometric tests and stored in a monolithic database) is treating us like criminals already.

    If they make criminals out of law abiding citizens trying to preserve our freedoms in a non-violent manner, then our suspicions will be confirmed.

    This is tantamount to legitimising political imprisonment, and shows exactly the direction our crackpot government is headed in.

    We should not need a license to exist in our own country... just who do they think they are?

    Blair and your band of sycophant cronies - F#CK OFF!!

    Politicians are the ones who cause ALL these problems in the first place with their pig-headed arrogance and exploitational use of other countries such as Iraq for their own gain.

    We would not have a terrorist problem if it wasn't for the idiotic actions of our politicians - now and in the past - meddling in the affairs of other people.

    So tell me, when this is all their fault in the first place, why should we take the fall and pay for it with our rights?

    War mongering politicians are the real terrorists, they are the real threat, and they are the ones who should be treated like the criminals they truly are!

    To make it worse, our "democratic" system is so badly broken it doesn't even give us a real chance to get rid of these morons who are ruining our country.

    When only 36% of voters (so that's much less than 36% of eligable adults) voted for the party who has 58% of the seats, something is seriously wrong.

    Will it ever change? Probably not without a revolution of some kind, and I guess that's where we are heading because we are being pushed to it.

    Well Mr. Blair, if you thought we were p#ssed off about the war in Iraq, have you got another thing coming if you try and force us to have ID cards!

    No ID cards EVER!!
    Electoral reform RIGHT NOW!!
  • Georgina, you're not being hypocritical. Not everyone can do everything.

    The more people find out about this scheme, the less they support it - look how the polls keep dropping. So the best thing you (or any of us) can do right now is just keep putting the word out.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I was about to say that worring about going to jail for refusing to accept having an ID card will be the same as accepting to carry an ID card the only difference is that the person carrying the ID card will be in an open prison.

    Dave Silvester got there before me and said it much much better. You're so right Dave the real criminals are the politicians. If governments just let people get on with their lives without interference the world would be quieter place.

    I see Mr Blair is trying to breed his own version of the Bush dynasty by sending his son to the US to work as a republican intern. Nice one Tony, why not suck up to that warmonger George W a little more. What other US policies are you going to implement next?
    Duane Phillips, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's funny that Georgina should mention the Suffragette movement -- I've long believed that if Blair had been Prime Minister back in Edwardian times, women today wouldn't have the vote. Blair would have called the Suffragettes "terrorists who threaten our civilization" -- remember the 'suicide bomber' Emily Davidson? -- and forced through legislation to have them all imprisoned.

    Did some of the Suffragettes' actions break the laws of the time? Absolutely, and the same is true for black civil rights protestors in 60s America. Were they right to do so? Abso-bloody-lutely!
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Some people are concerned about getting into bother with the law.

    What is law in a democracy, anyway? It is the set of rules by which we (as a community) agree to be governed. The elected are our representatives, not our masters. It threatens democracy to forget this, and politicians cannot be trusted to remember it. It is not only our right but our *duty* to oppose the government and check its excesses.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Because I have a deep belief in what everyone on here is trying to achieve I decided that I should do something more proactive to spread the word.

    Today I bought a domain name (www.1984brigade.com) with the aim of uniting all the Anti-ID factions, forums and groups as well as trying to provide upto date information with regards to ID technology and news.

    If anyone wants to lend a hand in keeping this site current I'm looking for volunteers/suggestions and possibly donations. There's a place here for you Georgina if you want to lend a hand.

    I know I'm probably going to get spammed,flamed or worse but if anybody wants in please email me pledge@1984brigade.com

    Ta
    Duane
  • There are other things you can do to secure your own privacy, in addition to campaigning against ID cards.

    a) Educate yourself about encryption, and get a copy of PGP for your computer. It doesn't cost much, and there are also free versions out there. Choose the biggest key you can, create a long passphrase that nobody else could guess (but one that you will absolutely never forget) - and never tell it to anyone. Think about what you're going to use for your passphrase for a while, before you create one. Register your public key, and encourage people to encrypt all e-mail - no matter how trivial. You should do the same, of course.

    b) Get a Skype VoIP phone (or install the software on your PC, and get your friends and family to do the same). Skype is also encrypted by default, making it much harder for anybody to listen in as if they were invited. Don't accept eavesdropping! You can be absolutely sure your government doesn't.

    c) Use this technology, and encourage your contacts to do the same. No encryption is feasible unless both sides can understand and use it. Anyone who accuses you of having "something to hide" should ask the challenger if they keep their bedroom curtains open when they get dressed. Well, do they?

    Why do this? There are a number of cases involving espionage. A German inventor named Wobben came up with a new generator (his company builds wind turbines). It was the culmination of years of research, and the NSA was snooping on Wobben (it could happen to you, too!) What did they do? They sold the technology to a US company, who then patented it before Wobben did. He then had to fight for the right to use his own technology!

    Interesting link:
    http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm

    (Scroll down about 80% to see a table of espionage incidents - section 10.7, under "Published cases").

    Privacy is something you have to take personal responsibity for. Nobody else is going to close your bedroom curtains for you - they'll just gawk at you. It's time to pull them closed, yourself. Making your position on ID cards known to your MP can't hurt, either.
    A N Onymous, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This, from the BBC website mentioned somewhere above, is superb:

    "It would be useful to have an ID card. I will use it to scrape the frost off my windscreen in the winter. When I think of any other useful purpose for an ID card, I will be back in contact!
    Rod Watson, Winchester, Hants"
    Tim Powell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • One Database to rule them all, One Database to find them, One Database to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

    Rise up! Rise Up! The Dark Lord Blairon must be destroyed. Mercy let be off! Smash him, Smash him!
    Gandalf, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The forum part of the site doesn't half spread the cookies about, Duane - 15 of them just to look at the welcome message (all but three peristent). I'm not paranoid about cookies, myself, but there does seem to be a certain irony there...
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i dont need another ID CARD I ALREADY HAVE A BIRTH CERTIFICATE, DRIVING LICENCE, MEDICAL CARD AND A PASSPORT, I THINK I KNOW WHO I AM! WHY NOT JUST MAKE PEOPLE CARRY ONE OF THESE AROUND?
    kim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What happens if someone presses the abusive report it button? is the article automatically removed? Surely that could allow government agents to
    take down any postings that are to close to the mark!

    I read one that has now vanished and it included a convincing argument that Blair is a Trojan horse planted in the labour party to undermine the democratic will of the people when they attempted to choose a less right wing administration in the 97 election. This does indeed seem to be the case as Blair Labour are hideously right wing and i cant believe its accidental and things have just turned out that way by brut bad luck. Therefore the only explanation is conspiracy and from the nature of Blairs political agenda distinctly fascist. This is an all or nothing proposition!
    Either Blairs right wing coup of the labour party was an accidental outcome or it was deliberately planned. I conclude in the balance of probability it is more likely to have been deliberately planned and if that is the case then though it may seem incredible to some, there is a conspiracy to create some sort of one party (fascist) state! A perpetual right wing administration pursuing a right wing agenda regardless of who the people elect or what name the party has!
    Its interesting to note that when you accept this it explains so many things in recent political events that just didn't make sense.Think about it and
    draw your own conclusions.
    I wonder if this article gets removed from the postings...?
    Twilight, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony,

    I see what you mean about the cookies and pop ups on the forum section of the site. I'll try and rectify it over the next few days. Using free plugin doesnt always pay and they are obviously free for a reason.

    Duane
  • Your categories are way out of date, Twilight. Many of the people supporting this pledge--including me--are proud to be right-wing. Others are impeccably socialist. The battle isn't right against left, but freedom aganist slavery.
    Guy Herbert, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Guy, I do agree. Freedom's freedom whether you're left or right wing (economic justice perhaps a different issue), but it is a bit odd that a Thatcherite should get elected as leader of the Labour party, non ?
    ello, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 'Tony Blair MP' is an anagram of 'I'm Tory Plan B.' I remember hearing that back before the election of '97 -- wish I'd listened to it.
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Left, right - it's not enough to capture the spectrum of political belief. Much as I disliked Thatcher, I can't see her ever going for ID cards - too much like state control. She didn't even believe in society.

    I used to be an idealist, became a socialist, didn't have the ruthless individualism (or money, for that matter) to be a capitalist, now I'm a pragmatist.
    Matt Palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/G...
    ello, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It is the very fact that, "Some people are concerned about getting into bother with the law."(Alan Chambers at 16:37 Thursday) that is so reassuring about this whole campaign. You see, so many normally law-abiding decent folks have finally had enough and are now prepared to speak out, pledge money and consider rebelling against the law that they have respected for so long.

    That proves how important this thing is. There is nothing amazing about rebellious types making a fuss but when the timid ones creep out of their protective shells . . . that's when we now we have a revolution.

    F R E E D O M !
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There is far more than the "whiff of the gas chamber" about any such database.
    Dave Harvey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • http://management.silicon.com/government... <--- are we fighting a loosing battle? ID cards through the back door, me thinks.

    Ok so you dont have to have a passport but you then become a prisoner trapped in your own country. A country which I used to be proud of but no longer. I think I rather be elsewhere than living in the 51st State of the USA. The whole place has gone to the dogs (or should that be to the hounds of hell that seem to govern us these days).
  • A number of speakers in Tuesday’s parliamentary debate voiced their concerns that it wasn’t the ID card they were so much worried about, but rather the database behind it, i.e. the National Identity Register (NIR). But, as I recall, nobody referred explicitly to the threat behind the database, and that is the National Identity Registration Number (NIRN) which the scheme will allocate to all UK citizens. For it is this unique identification element which, I believe, poses the greatest threat to our individual privacy, whether or not we have ID cards.

    Once the NIRNs have been created it then becomes a relatively simple administrative task to migrate these to all our other personal records in other databases: medical, educational, welfare, tax, police, criminal, etc. At a stroke this would create what in effect would become a vast distributed, integrated database of personal information, with the NIR at its hub. This is for me the ultimate future Orwellian nightmare at the heart of the government’s ID card scheme. And so even if Charles Clarke could be persuaded to cut down on the information fields within the NIR or reduce the number of biometric tests, this would not fundamentally reduce the deadly authoritarian threat which the scheme poses to our liberties.
  • I think it is fair to say that Mr Blair can take all credit for this scheme...Eric Arthur Blair, that is.
    Master Henry J. Golding, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • John Welford, 10:45 on Friday:

    Yesterday, I posted a 3-page letter to my MP expressing my concern primarily over the database behind the system.

    The cards alone are not the big threat - the biggest threat is the fact that all databases have a very weak spot - the humans operating them.

    This database will be funadmentally insecure because you cannot guarantee that the people working on it can be trusted. Normally, this doesn't matter too much, but in a case like this where our entire identity and personal details are at stake, the risk is far too great.

    I've just posted my letter on my website - you can read it by clicking my name at the end of this posting, or going direct to:

    http://www.mu-sly.co.uk/articles/2005/07...

    If anyone has any comments, please feel free to email me (contact details on my website).

    Cheers,
  • I honestly might leave this country, the total lack of interest our government has in the people's views is incredibly depressing.
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • They are pathetic aren't they, this government. The day after the bill squeezes through parliament they announce their latest lie that there are over half a million (yeah, right) illegal immigrants in this country, the implication being of course that if there were ID cards then these half a million would go away.
    One of the most painful lessons that I have learned in my life is that Governments lie, just make sure that you do not fall for their lies.
    ID No 221274659, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edwin,

    I think you'll find it's the other way round. It's the population who take a lack of interest in politics that:

    a) allowed this bunch of control freaks back in government.

    b) are allowing the government to ride rough-shod over us.

    If more people like us stood up and voiced our concern then perhaps somebody would take notice and listen and back down.

    I was just wondering what percentage of the population think like us (the people who have pledged) but either don't want to cause a fuss, or fear reprisals or are just too damn lazy to say anything and dont believe they can make a difference.
  • I suspect that the mythical 70% (or is it 80%, or 55% this week?) of the population who are said to be pro ID cards are pro ID cards for "them". "Them" being illegal immigrants, criminals, people who follow dodgy religions, talk funny, scam the benefit system or even claim benefits at all, eat odd food or in other ways aren't "us". "We", of course, won't be affected. I'm beginning to think that's what people actually mean by "If you've nothing to hide..." They actually mean "I personally won't have to have a card at all BECAUSE I've nothing to hide that I personally don't approve of".

    Once it dawns on the great British public that it's not just "them" that'll be ordered down to the police station to be fingerprinted, it's "people like us" who have "nothing to hide" as well, the percentage in favour might drop markedly. After all, "they" are dodgy criminal types who deserve ID cards. "We" aren't.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    There a number of simultaneous problems in effect here, and I will try and explain them as briefly as I can.

    1. Lack of interest in politics - this is largely because we have a political system (the first past the post system) that is not representative of the proportions of votes allocated to each party. This system always tends towards a two party system, and is fundamentally broken. Until we get proportional representation and a proper election system in the UK, apathy towards politics is here to stay.

    2. The media - spoon fed panic is all it takes to control most of the populous. Herman Goering, infamous Nazi war criminal and founder of the Gestapo said:

    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

    This is what is happening right now, and has been happening forever. Blair and Bush especially use this tactic.

    3. Blind belief - many people in this country honestly, really believe that the government can be trusted and have our best interests at heart. Only those who question everything (such as ourselves) ever find out the truth. As Abraham Lincoln said: "You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time."

    4. Lack of critical thinking skills - I really, honestly believe that it's no accident that enforced schooling through a national curriculum could be used to slowly but surely reduce people's capacity for critical thinking over time. School doesn't teach kids to THINK, it teaches them to CONFORM. I have experienced this first hand, but it's only since adulthood that the severity of it fully occurred to me.

    5. Doing something requires effort, whereas doing nothing requires no effort. Until this scheme requires people to make effort (in some way or another), most are too lazy to care about it. This isn't all bad though, because once it is put into action, there will be even more of an uprising against it. I only hope we aren't too late at that point.

    So there you have it - some reasons why we are royally screwed, and also a few glimmers of hope.

    Please people, get in touch with each other. The one thing we are missing here is a real forum (web forum, email list or whatever) in order to discuss our thoughts and mobilise our campaign.

    Perhaps we should ask Phil Booth to set up a "PhpBB" forum section on No2ID?

    Cheers,
  • D'oh... there it is, right there... how I didn't notice it before is beyond me:

    http://www.no2id.net/forum/

    Joining right now! :-)
  • Dami Dami Dami, you really don't get it, do you?

    "Furthermore who would really resists? Only criminals."

    Riiiight. Tell that to the 200,000 jews killed in concentration camps in the Holocaust. The Nazi government were *REALLY* keen for them to register!

    I am not scared of going to court, because the alternative of living under this system will be equally as repulsive and repressive as living in a prison. In the police state this will create, we are all prisoners to the state anyway.

    You are a fool, and your derogatory, verging on racist ("little island", "horrible accent") comments do a great job of highlighting it.

    I'm resisting the temptation to report your comment, because it is a good thing to have an idiot like you around to give us all the evidence we need that those who support this scheme are nothing but complete morons.

    Get a clue!
  • Duane Phillips,

    You're right, people have grown too apathetic about politics, they don't see what they can do to get involved, and everyone is generally too lazy to bother. What we need is a few huge demonstrations too make the goverment realise that the people do care - if they do.

    I think generally, the people who say they're in favour of ID cards are those who are uninformed. I can't believe that if people really knew the (potential) implications of them (and more importantly, the database), they'd be against it. In the end, a ID card not linked to a database would be much safer - but clearly not perfect - you could have cloning of ID cards still...
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Dami:

    Trolls should stay where they belong - lurking under bridges in Scandinavian mythology.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID schemes can only work by making it a criminal offence to fail to produce ID when required or by making access to a whole range of commercial services such as banking and travel inaccessible without producing ID.

    Had this been proposed by Mrs T's administration I have no doubt that there would have already been mass demonstrations. What is it with the great British public - Tony and his cronies may always have firmly fixed smug smiles and may always offer a 'reasonable' arguement but they are against liberty and want to control YOUR lives.

    We already have a higher penetration of CCTV than any other state in Europe. We willingly give over sensitive information to commercial organisations (just think about how much Tesco knows about its Clubcard holders). The government already expects Internet Service Providers and telephone companies to retain call details. If we drive in central London Ken and his men will know. And shortly we will be compelled to have tracking deivces fitted to our vehicles so that the government will know where our vehicles are at any one time.

    Suggestion for Uncle Tony - why not go the whole way? Let's DNA swab children at birth, and extend the chipping of dogs to humans.

    Final point - ID cards will not prevent terrorism, protect our children from perverts or stop organised crime. As the American Phil Zimnmerman said,

    "When privacy is outlawed, only outlaws will have privacy."

    Think about it.
    Malcolm Highfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Does Dami arctually desrve a response and I suspect a few flame throwers are heating up as I type.

    Dami if you dont live in this country then I suggest you back out of an argument that isn't yours. If you belong to a country that treats it's citizens like cattle then I feel really sorry for you.

    Here in the UK we still have some freedoms that are vanishing at a rapid rate of knots and I am not prepared to to let the ones that are left be taken from me by just lying down and being shafted by Bliar et al.

    My when I was young I my grandfather told me that he fought in WWII so I could be free and I used to think "Yeah, right you fought it for yourself". I now I know he was right and the people he fought were not wiped out they just went quiet to raise their voices again 60 years later.

    We may all end up with a criminal record but at least we can say we fought again being opressed and didn't go quietly into the night. I feel a William Wallace speech coming on here:

    "Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while.And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days, from this day to that,for one chance, just one chance,to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!"

    ID Cards are the very thin end of a very thick wedge.
  • From Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_tr...
    _____
    In the context of the Internet, a troll is a message that is inflammatory or hostile, which by effect or design causes a disruptions in discourse, or a person posting such messages. Trolling can be described as a breaching experiment, which, because of the use of an alternate persona, allows for normal social boundaries and rules of etiquette to be tested or otherwise broken, without serious consequences.
    _____
    The best thing to do with trolls is not to feed them.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dani has a very simplistic attitude and fatalistic approach to what she considers inevitable. The rest of us have hope that our little remaining freedoms are worth fighting for. I have to worry about the future of my kids and our society. Damn the card, we fight against it until the bitter end.
    Nicos Souleles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oh, i touched a few sensitive spots.

    I think it is actually wrong in comparing your government to the holocaust 60 years ago.

    I do am happy to read the fact that some people are bright enough to see that the government has this information already. They now want it in a centralized database.

    See the following (being security analyst for a government institution helps a lot). The government has this information already. It is stored in a database, but let's say 'nobody (gov)' tells you.

    Then, this site wouldn't exist, and all of you could spend their money on people who really need it, like the tsunami relief funds and so on. Nobody would be worried about their privacy. Now, when they tell you and issue ID cards.. all of the sudden this endangers your privacy.

    Providing an increment of protection towards both the government and towards its inhabitants, the government wants to issue these cards.

    Your phone calls are being tapped if you are on a blacklist.
    Your internet connections are being captured.
    Your purchases are being recorderd.
    Your medical records are being kept.
    Whatever time you spend in the army, is kept.. together with all results from psychological tests then.
    All crimes you did, are kept.. even though they "expired".


    This was happening years ago already, so don't you think it's too late?

    No I don't live in the UK, though I spent 2 weeks a month there nowadays.

    Look to countries around you, countries that have a much higher safety and stability level? Yes, they have ID cards.

    Take an example of an adolecent girl that is kidnapped, raped and badly needs medical treatment, all she's carrying is het ID card and the doctor is notified just before he wants to inject a huge shot of peniceline that she is alergic for that and might cost her her life.

    If you want privacy, there are ways to ensure this privacy, but when the need for any government is needed, people take this all for granted. You want privacy? Use encryption, don't post on the internet, hook up to a phone booth to connect to the internet and change e-mail addresses every week.

    Though yes, some information shouldn't be on the card. But it's either give or take (and with government it's allways a "take").

    I do agree with Duane Philips that this is an impact on privacy, and yet freedom. Though freedom is many times an illusion, same in this case.

    Who are you trying to be free from? Your own government?
    dami, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    The reason your grandfather had to fight in World War II was because the German citizens didn't resist their Nazi government when it came into power, and started abusing its authority. What happened? World war for everyone, including the Germans. Make no mistake - the average German citizen didn't enjoy the war any more than we did, and I bet they had plenty of time to repent at leisure.

    If the German populace had resisted the Nazi government, and told them where to stick their plans, we would never have had World War II. Would we have called them terrorists? No. I think we would have called them heroes. Like Australia and New Zealand - both have recently rejected ID card schemes exactly like this one. Yup, databases and everything. So take heart - it's not impossible!

    The moral of this story? Think globally, act locally. Sometimes, it's more than just *your* problem!
    Nobody, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dami,

    My government is put in power by me to serve me not the other way round. So yes I am seeking freedom from my own government. Yes all the information is already available but because it is disjointed makes it a little awkward for those who dont need to know everything to actually collate it all.

    You're right, money shouldnt be wasted on fighting this but the UK government shouldn't just throw £18bn at a flawed scheme either. Imagine the poverty and suffering you could relieve with that sort of money. The money could also be put into renewable energy and stop our reliance on oil which seems to be the root cause of a lot of wars.

    If I collapse in the street and I dont dont have my ID card on me or it is damaged then a doctor is going to have the same idea on how to treat me in the future as he has today. Those with serious allergies already tend to carry information about how to treat them in a medical emergency so using that as a case for ID cards is a very weak argument.

    ID card's don't make society more secure. Take the instance of Spain where they already have ID cards. It didn't stop terrorists blowing up trains did it?

    I refuse to have to pay for something I for which I have no need.
  • Dami,

    History repeats itself. If you have not studied history, I suggest you do so; your response would seem to indicate that you have not. Comparing a government that existed 60 years ago is actually extremely relevant! Why? Because they are *all* run by human beings. Human beings have the same lust for power they've had since before the Middle Ages. They're as devious as Machiavelli, before and after he lived. Humanity does not change. We might get better technology, newer ways of living - but, deep down, we're still the same bunch of imperfect beings we've always been.

    The issue with ID cards is one of trust - yes, this information is held (with the notable exception of DNA, fingerprints or iris scans). Some others, too - most notably previous addresses, other forms of ID that could be used as a passport, etc. Did you do your research before posting? It doesn't show. An ID card fixes none of the issues you have raised (a simple medical card would suffice for your allergy example, and they have been around for *years*). Again, you seem to be uninformed.

    I think Dave Silvester said it best when he told you to "Get a clue". You should take his advice. Oh, and read up on the situation, because your ignorance is really obvious. Some of us *do* actually care enough about the issue at hand to at least familiarise ourselves with what we are facing.
    Nobody, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dami, if you really are a "security analyst for a government institution" then once again, I think you are all the evidence we need in order to to be very *VERY* afraid!

    As for other countries having better security, I would like to point out that the UK is one of the remaining, as-yet unattacked, top targets on the "Al-Qaeda Hitlist".

    If you're going to troll, at least be an informed troll!
  • It goes without saying that I am utterly opposed to ID cards and will not hold one. However, I don't think anyone has adequately answered (or answered at all) how people are to resist accepting an ID card if it is linked, as it will be, to the issue of a Passport. Last night I went to the Big Big Brother NO2ID organised meeting in Central London. Dominic Grieve, the Conservative MP- a speaker - informed us that one doesn't need a Passport to leave or re-enter this country. This is interesting information which may be encapsulated in some obscure unwritten folklore somewhere - but useless. Can you imagine arriving at some foreign destination (if you had managed to leave Britain without a Passport and ID in the first place)and expecting to be let in? No way! And then, you return to Fascist Britain and smile, Passport-less, at Customs! What do you think would happen? If they are going to arrest people smoking in bus shelters then they'd probably hang you for trying to travel without a Passport and the by then mandatory ID Card.

    Seriously, I would like to know what (or if) there is a solution to the Passport/ID tie-up. It seems to me the perfect catch. No-one wants to be imprisoned in this country before they've actually erected the barbed wire all round it. Please let me know.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes, that was a bit of a throwaway remark from Mr Grieve and as I recall he wasn't too keen on clarifying exactly what he'd meant when someone (was it you?) asked about it in the question session afterwards.

    It's probably technically the case that they can't refuse a British citizen the right to enter Britain without a passport, however the difficulty comes in proving that you *are* a British citizen with right of entry and abode, if you have no passport. The Immigration Service is unlikely to accept a gas bill as proof of ID at the port of entry, after all.

    As Mr Grieve also said, carriers (airlines, etc) *will* refuse to take you without a passport; immigration rules now say that carriers taking people without documentation are subject to large fines and, of course, carriers are free to demand that you fulfil whatever reasonable conditions they want if they're to take you.

    Threads over on the NO2ID forum pages indicate that the Passport Agency will be issuing passports with "empty" biometric chips from October this year; my first step will be to apply for a new passport immediately (ie before October 2005). Since my passport expires in February next year this happens not to be a hardship for me. Whether just to apply for a new one (which I understand you are allowed to do at any time without justifying why you aren't using the old one till it expires), or whether I'll stick the old one in for a full boil wash and return it as damaged I'm not sure yet!
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't know what kind of 'security analyst' Dami claims to be, but a lot of respected independent security technology people aren't very impressed by the UK plans for a National ID card.

    For example, Bruce Schneier of Counterpane Systems in the U.S. (just voted one of the year's 25 top CTOs) has some written some very clear explanations of the many ways in which most proposed ID card schemes will fail to accomplish what we're told they'll do.

    http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0404...

    Most of the problems come in the back-end databases and our need to decide if we trust them or not.

    On a related issue, he doesn't say biometric passports are pointless, just "I don't think that the additional security is worth the money and the additional risks. It's a bad security trade-off."

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/20...

    In fact, the main arguments against ID cards are just that we could get a lot better security for a lot less money.

    Read more of the stuff of Schneier's site and you'll begin to see how simplistic Dami's analysis is. I'm starting to suspect 'security analyst' means he sets up network accounts for staff in a government call centre, but I'm sure he'll disclose his MI6 codename to us soon.

    On a side issue, I seem to remember that the government changed the law a couple of years back to require UK citizens to have passports to leave and re-enter (although there's still no immigration check when you leave -- a much more obvious security loophole than having no ID cards). Back in the late 80s I did actually leave the country once without a passport, but I don't think I'd want to chance it now!
    Rupert Clayton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re: Tony Walton's response to my query about Passports linked to ID Cards and thus being imprisoned if one refused the Card: you suggest applying for a new passport with "empty" biometric chip which they will be issuing after October 2005. What happens when they want to activate the "empty" chip when the ID Card scheme is up and running? Won't that mean you will be prevented from using your "useless" Passport until it has been made "useful" by having all the data put on it, with the addition of the ID Card?

    They will have run a lot of publicity before "D" (for Doomsday) day telling everyone who has a passport with an empty chip that they have to fill in the requisite forms and comply with the biometrics to "enable" their passport ready for "D" day.

    I may be not getting this, but I don't understand how your idea will work? Could you please enlighten me?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You misread what I said, Judith. I said BEFORE October 2005 (ie one without the chip).
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • One other issue that nobody seems to have mentioned so far: There is no limitation (either through policy or technology) on what may be done with your DNA, once it has been taken from you. You could be cloned, without your knowledge or consent. They've done it with sheep and human stem cells. It's not within the realm of science fiction to say that within a few decades (or even a few short years) they'll be able to do it with humans. Yes, it's illegal ... but if it's done in secret, who's going to know?

    Previously, you were only really at risk of having your DNA taken if you committed a crime. Maybe the powers that be have decided that they want a DNA database made up from people other than hardcore criminals. For what purpose? Who can say. I think it is highly suspect that we're to be given no choice in the matter, though - effectively, we're all to be criminalised for the sake of having our DNA taken because the Secretary of State wants it for purposes he won't say. Yet, you're expected to justify yourself at every turn. Doesn't anyone else find that idea a little unsettling?

    Your DNA could also be sold to insurance companies, to help cover the astronomical costs associated with the ID card scheme. Suddenly, you find your life insurance premiums rocket by 3000% - because your insurance company didn't like what they found in your DNA. You'll be pigeon-holed, categorised and filed according to your DNA strain - simply for the purpose of reducing risk to the insurance companies. You can bet they'll all be in favour of an ID card scheme for this very reason. Money talks.

    Some firm might like your DNA and decide to patent it - which would put you in a very interesting (and possibly illegal) position. To me, it doesn't sound all that outlandish - after all, they already do the same with GM crops. What's to stop this from happening? If you can patent a peanut butter sandwich (or a piece of software, or a GM crop), what's to stop you from patenting a human? Furthermore, what rights does a human being have in a patented body? When do we stop becoming people and start becoming product?

    How do you prevent these sorts of things happening, unless you keep your own DNA private? There's more at stake than you realise...
    Nobody in particular, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well Stated ,nobody in particular...shades of the master race? genetic cleansing? clone army?
    they are DEMONIC resist them NOID
    NOID, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sorry Tony, it was just the way I read it. I see what you mean now (re: applying for new passport now). I've just been looking on the forum at threads and the points made about refusal on religious and human rights grounds make a lot of sense. Does anyone know exactly where we stand, especially in relation to human rights if we refuse to participate. I've attached the thread link.

    http://www.no2id.net/forum/viewtopic.php...
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • All interesting points. This is one reason why we're pledging £10 - so the sum total can afford lawyers who can use this sort of legislation to defend us when we refuse point blank to countenance registering.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Something important occurred to me. The government wouldn't even need to sell your DNA for the insurance companies to have access to it. Since it would be a biometric component of your identity card - and one that would require checking for each transaction you perform, the insurance company can take a sample of your DNA for the purpose of comparison. Of course, once they have your DNA, they can perform any other checks they like...
    Nobody in particular, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Blair is perhaps the worst servant we've had working for us lately. All we've ever asked of him was to provide us with decent country to live in and not get too self important. Recently though he's been going on about solving poverty in Africa when really all we want is to get to work on time, enjoy reasonable health, hopefully not go to war with too many oil rich countries and end our days in relative prosperity or at least not in poverty. But anyway, he now seems to think that it is a good idea if we present ourselves at one of his interrogation centres or I think they’re calling them “biometric registration centres” (chilling) to provide his cronies with finger prints and other somewhat personal information so that we can be issued with personal ID cards. Well, in my opinion he can stuff these cards up his proverbial. He's no more than a jumped up servant and should be regarded as such. And as for that complete cretin working with him he should definitely stuff them away in a dark place. I’m sure he’ll find plenty or room.

    Who's having inappropriate relations with whom here?

    From a personal point of view I will be fifty years old in five years time when perhaps they send me a letter requesting my attendance at one of their new regional interrogation offices.

    I am really living in Great Britain?

    What did all those people die for in the two world wars last century?

    Perhaps we’ll find out in World War Three.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can't help feeling that a trustworthy government would respect our right to distrust it. How can we exercise a healthy distrust of the state if we are obliged to provide biometric information? Is it not true that in the greater scheme of things people have had more to fear from abuses of authority than from terrorists?
    stephen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Land of hope and glory - mother of the free, whatever happened to that. What is going on in this God forsaken country? It's all been said, My Grandad, WWII, "your papers please". CCTV, recorded phone calls, cameras on every street corner, and now a pint of blood. Well bugger that. Enough is enough. It'll be a cold day in Hell before I show up like a holocaust victim to get my 'stamp' 'property of HM Government. F*** THAT.
    richard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • OK, so I'm against ID cards for all the reasons you are but how will their absence or use prevent my being the victim of identity theft again? I don't have credit or debit cards for that reason, I don't have a passport and my driving licence is the old style paper one.
    Allie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards will not stop identity theft. There was a report issued the other day with a conservative estimate that within 10 years biometric cards will be cracked. That I feel is a very conservative estimate I think it's probably closer to 2 years. If a man invents something another man can usually and quickly uninvent it.

    If reliance on an ID card is the only check that will be used to prove who you say you are then that in itself is asking trouble as single points of failure with any critical system must never be allowed. If after ID cards are issued you still have to provide multiple forms of ID to confirm who you are, then what is the point of an ID card in the first place?

    Im sorry to hear that you have been the victim of ID theft but the only way to combat that is to protect yourself. There have been several postings on here on how to do that and are worth a read.

    I also think that people confuse credit card fraud for identity theft which really is a seperate issue. The phrase ID theft is used to scaremonger (see previous posts about propaganda)

    ID cards are not the magic bullet to ending crime or terrorism. The only reason ID cards are put in place by governments is so that they can control the people. I for one shall not be collecting my yellow star. I'm sure some of Mr Bliars cronies monitor this site, so come on Tony tell us the real reason you're pushing for ID cards?

    RESIST RESIST RESIST RESIST RESIST RESIST
    Say NO to ID, say NO to the database state.
  • There's an interesting piece in the Times today:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...

    "The director of the London School of Economics has accused the Home Office of using “bullying and intimidation” in its attempt to suppress a study about identity cards, writes Robert Winnett."

    Bullying and intimidation from the Government? Surely not.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • And another interesting piece from Michael Portillo (who compares the ID card stupidity with the Poll Tax fiasco in 1987).

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...

    "As people begin to discover that they cannot receive benefits or open a bank account or borrow a book without buying an expensive card, the political temperature is going to rise. When they realise that it contains 50 pieces of private information about them, the mercury will climb higher.

    As they find that some of their personal data are wrong and some are being kept secret from them, tempers may fray. If parliament cannot defeat the bill, maybe it will perish on the streets."
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • hi

    sadly, my husband and i fled uk in 2001 after many years of loving that green and pleasant land. Unfortunately, the government do not represent the people in any country that i am aware of.
    my husband was arrested in 2000 leaving a protest site in crystal palace (london). he was accused of bearing an offensive weapon (later thrown out of court - it was a swiss army pen knife that is still currently available for sale in uk with a locking blade - they even returned the object to him). so, why did the police ask him for a strand of hair? he said no, they said, then we will forcibly remove one. he said that is rape, they took the hair.
    no to id card
    no to tony bleurgh
    good luck people who live in that lovely land
    peace and community and stick together...
    emanwela lowry, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So, I'm dead set against ID cards and no way am I paying for one, because I trust the government as far as I can comfortably spit a camel, and a rabid camel at that.

    I don't, in fact think that ID cards are all bad, all the way, (because they have them on the contient and use the to travel in Europe etc. and it's convenient to have something with your photo on it when you aren't being trusted by your bank etc to be who you say you are), but the very idea that the government is putting biometric data on it, and possibly keeping some of it from us is appalling. What protects us now is the disparity and rivalry between departments which means that all the information about us is not end to end coherent. I make a practice of entering something wrong when I fill in forms.

    What is REALLY appalling though, is the idea that we will have the ID card, and then we will be required to provide our "number" when we buy a car, (You bet it will be on the registration document), and as the Government want to satellite track vehicle for the new "road tax" scheme based on milage, they will know who you are and where you are at all times. How long before the card has to be inserted into the car before the car will drive, so that the vehicle cannot be stolen or driven by unauthorised drivers, (on the surface a good idea), and how long before any violation, speeding by a mile an hour or two, a bit late at the lights, not stopping dead at a the stopping junction, or that bit of illicit parking we all do, even me, Mr Paranoia about where I park, do from time to time, is picked up by the ubiquitous black box and listed on our driving record with the attendent fines and penalties? How long before when you are pulled over, the central control can switch your car off remotely?

    Not long I think.

    Forgive me, I don't think you lot are paranoid enough. It may be 25 years late, but 1984 and a lot worse is here and coming into law right now...

    Try this on for size too. I send a fake singal from say, my motorbike and commit a crime, not only is some poor bugger charged for that road milage, but they are charged with the crime too, using the supposedly "sound" evidence.
  • Just a quicky about the governments road pricing scheme mentioned in the last post.

    Why do we need fancy satellites and transponders fitted to vehicles when there is a very cheap and easy solution to road pricing: Abolish car tax, divide the £150 road fund licence/average amount of fuel used per year (which is about 400 gallons) and raise the duty on fuel by that amount (about 38p). Those that drive more than average pay more, those with big gas guzzlers pay more and those that want to sit on the M25 for 2 hours pay more.

    Again the car tracking scheme smells more of government control than wanting to sort out congestion. They want to know where you are.

    I wager that someone in government somewhere must be getting their palm greased by some techology company to allow them to provide the ID card and raod pricing solution.
  • Part of the problem with ID Cards is that they are not being marketed very well to the public. If ID Cards were called say “Freedom Cards” it would give the public a better idea of the benefits (everyone wants to be free) and speed up their acceptance. Hard working families could see them more as life style choices such as buying groceries in a supermarket, which they understand thereby making approval far greater. Freedom Cards would be like an old family friend. Slogans could be for example “without one you’re in gaol”. A snazzy TV advertising campaign accompanied with press articles in all the newspapers pointing out the numerous benefits (which I won’t go into as they have already been discussed at length on this site) would help people understand how it would improve their every day lives; things that matter to ordinary people such as saving time, knowing who you are, staying out of gaol and keeping tabs on their children thanks to RFID. This would help prevent people realising that they are simply enslavement cards. What the New Loony Party should have done, was started the advertising campaign for the Freedom Cards on TV and radio well in advance of the second reading in Parliament to ensure the bill went through smoothly; a bit like the propaganda they used to use during the war to avoid telling the truth. Luckily the bill got through but now they are going to have a more difficult time in the Lords. As a suggestion, it might be a good idea as part of the bill’s reading to demonstrate a biometric scanner in operation to the honourable gentlemen and ask some of them volunteer to have their fingerprints, faces and retinas scanned. While I cannot imagine that they visit supermarkets very often and have spent much time if any at the checkout, it might help them appreciate the benefits and calm their fears about all this new technology. They might in fact find it all quite good fun and it could even be televised on children’s TV if the concepts were perhaps simplified and presented in a more frightening or sinister way. Of course before they put it on TV they would have to get a more telegenic presenter as he doesn't always come across very well and even children might think he was bit silly.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Freedom Cards"? Of course. They could accompany the adverts with catchy straplines about freedom, such as "Arbeit macht frei", or "Freedom is Slavery".
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Does any one know a specific date for the intoduction of biometrics in UK passports?

    The Observer today said it will be this autumn.I think i`ll renew mine before that.Typical government stealth technique,to indroduce this incremently via the passports....
    Oh yeah,how are they going to get iris scans of folk who close their eyes?
    Wink Wink! ;) ;)
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Tim who stated:

    "Since 9/11 things have been moving quickly it seems, and I am now deeply suspicious of the official story of that event..."

    I encourage everyone who visits this site to take time to look at the following:

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html
    http://911research.com/talks/index.html

    And also..."The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions", available through Amazon.co.uk.

    The monumentally unjust wars, and insidious legislation that is now being pushed through has been strategically set against the backdrop of the events of 11th September, 2001. However, what we have been told about 9/11 doesn't even come remotely close to being the truth. It is important to understand this, and spread the information as widely as possible.
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hey chris,this is also a good site regarding the same topic,and you gotta ask yourself questions when you view such material.It is clear to me that we have not been told the whole story:
    http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bun...


    "The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists"-J Edgar Hoover.
  • In the last couple of days I have started getting every comment posted here as email. Anyone know how I turn this 'feature' off. I've checked the FAQ but it says nothing about this.

    Thanks,
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Stephen, the email you get when a comment is added has a link at the bottom marked something like "To stop getting emails when comments are added, click on this link".

    Click on it.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Allie's comment earlier today made me think about something. I too have an old-style paper driving licence rather than a photocard (it's mainly through sheer idleness that I've never replaced it).

    I'm putting in for a replacement with a photocard licence tomorrow. I wouldn't put it past this sneaky, cynical lot of lizards to suddenly bring in a measure under the Road Traffic Act that all paper licences must be replaced with photocards, AFTER they've linked applying for a replacement driving licence with getting a stupID card. (I hasten to add that I have no sources saying they are going to do this, but it's the sort of thing they'd do).

    So I'm putting in for a replacement for my paper (well, 65% Sellotape) driving licence while the only things that are required is £19 and a photo, with no additional stupID information being demanded.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re: Silicone Synapse and passports.

    The UK Passport Agency (UKPA) website says at
    http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/press_160605.asp

    "The date for rollout of UK biometric passports is in the period January-July 2006."

    elsewhere (http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/press_240305.asp) they say

    "Key to this work will be the introduction from the end of this year of biometric ‘ePassports’, which will include a chip containing a scanned image of the holder’s unique facial features..."

    So even from those two you can pick and choose between "the end of this year" and "January-July 2006". Received wisdom from the no2id message forums seems to be that it may be starting from October 2005 and in fact the UKPA site does at one point say ( http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/news/news.asp?int... )

    "The primary biometric identifier approved by the International Civil Aviation Organisation is a facial recognition biometric (which can be derived from a passport photograph). The UKPS and FCO, in collaboration with international partners, (including the US), have a programme of work in place to implement this biometric in British passports from late 2005/early 2006. "


    The answer seems to be "some time soon", then.

    My passport expires in February 2006 and I'm taking no chances; after using the passport as ID evidence for my shiny new driving licence (see above) I'm applying for a new passport this week.

    One nice thing; if you apply for a new passport when the old one's not expired they'll give you up to nine months extra time from the old one on the new one, so since mine expires in seven months time I should get a "ten year and seven months" one when I get the new one (does what I just said there make sense?)
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'v signed up - but then wondered the following : At present the intention is for the scheme to be voluntary - and no doubt mandatory in about 8 years. But at present whats the legal defence fund going to do!!! It won't be illegal at first.
    Phil H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards as the Tory Right demand, let that money provide thousands more police officers on the beat in our local communities"

    These are the words of Tony Blair, in a passionate speech against Identity Cards to the 1995 Labour party conference in Brighton. Ten years later and he not only wants an ID card himself, but wants us all scanned, fingerprinted and registered on the largest biometric database in the world.

    see:
    http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/p...
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Come on, Peter. If we were to cite instances of Bliar saying one thing then saying another when he deems it expedient we'd be here all night.

    See also, for example, Bliar's recent statement that "I am a passionate pro-European. I always have been" and compare it with his speech in Sedgefield in 1983, when he was equally passionately stating "We'll negotiate a withdrawal from the E.E.C. which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs."

    Then there's the time Bliar says he ran away from home as a teenager and got on a flight from Newcastle Airport to the Bahamas. This is odd, since there have never been flights to the Bahamas from Newcastle Airport...

    The man simply says anything.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • People,

    don't confuse the biometrics on passports with ID cards, they are very different things. The government implied that we would save money on ID cards because we had to put biometrics on passports anyway, to comply with the civil ICAO requirements and US visa requirements.

    However, the ICAO biometric requirements are completely different to the ones required for the ID card scheme, so doing one won't save any money on the other. The ICAO requirements also don't require a huge central database containing lots of personal details, and basically require a facial biometric (e.g. a good photograph).

    http://www.icao.int/mrtd/biometrics/reco...

    We also "had" to put fingerprints on passports to comply with US visa requirements. The US has now backed down on these requirements several times as the reality of how difficult it will be sinks in. Not that I have any desire to visit the US anytime soon.

    The magic word "biometric" covers a multitude of things. Please don't believe that all these schemes are equivalent in terms of privacy invasion, or that we can justify cost savings on the ID cards by the work we may do to comply with international agreements on passports.
    Matt Palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I quote from the UKPA website, Matt:

    http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/news/news.asp?int...

    "For many UK citizens the identity card will be issued as passports come up for renewal or for first time applications. The Home Office, the UKPS and other government departments will now start to lay the foundations for the scheme, which will establish a more secure means of proving people´s identity. As part of this process, the UKPS will progress its major anti-fraud and secure identity initiatives inlcuding the addition of a biometric to the British passport."

    I don't believe much that this Government tells me, but when they say in black and white that "For many UK citizens the identity card will be issued as passports come up for renewal" I'll get in there and get a new passport without any form of chip, thank you very much.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Y'know the best thing they could do to stop passports being used for identity theft?

    STOP SENDING THEM THROUGH THE POST!
  • After Saddam Hussein was ousted and reporters found (or rather were shown) all the detailed records maintained about Iraqi citizens, we were encouraged to think of this as both a symbol and a tool of Saddam's oppression. Now our government wants to introduce a much more detailed system of control, with all the computing power Saddam could have wished for. Oh the irony: if only people had longer memories than when they last watched 'Big Brother'.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There was an interesting article in yesterday's Observer: 'Rebels ready to face prison over ID cards: Refuseniks will copy Australian tactics to foil scheme'. In case you missed it, you can find it at:

    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/...
  • Police patrol cars in Northamptonshire are being fitted with mobile fingerprint readers as part of a trial that could pave the way for the technology to be rolled out across all UK police forces......

    http://management.silicon.com/government...
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • http://management.silicon.com/government... <-- more of the database state being rolled out. I wonder what happens if you refuse to submit to the fingerprint scan?

    A comment on Matt Palmers message about the US and fingerprint being required on passports. I decided months ago that I will never be able to visit the US as I refuse to go to any country that treats me as a criminal at the point of entry.
  • Having travelled to the US recently, I can confirm that they absolutely make you feel like a criminal at point of entry.

    I stood in line for around an hour and a half, only to have my photo taken, fingerprints scanned, motives questioned, and friends called at home by unidentified immigration officials.

    As a one-off, abroad, I can deal with paranoid authoritarian bullying, but I'm sorry Tony I'm not putting up with that at home. If you want to print a barcode on MY neck I've got a single-digit biometric you can scan instead.
    Richard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Does anyone know of any other country in the world where all citizens must provide fingerprints?

    Or have we finally achieved world leader status as "THE WORLD'S MOST OPPRESSIVE REGIME". We should make it an event in the coming Olympics; we’d be guaranteed a gold.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think the US would get gold for coming first in the knee jerk reaction event followed by the UK(with David Blunket as team captain) as a very close second. We wouldn't want to win would we, its not the British thing to do.

    Perhaps we members of the pledge site could enter as the spanner chucking team :o))
  • Public support for identity cards is falling fast and should soon sink well below the water line, according to YouGov's latest survey for The Daily Telegraph.....

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re 'Rebels ready to face prison over ID cards', last year the BBC reported that people who refuse to register could face a "civil financial penalty" of up to £2,500 and that "David Blunkett said not making registering a criminal issue would avoid "clever people" becoming martyrs." - presumably this was dropped from the new ID Card bill then...?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/polit...
    sdenham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I assume that David Blunkett realised at the time he uttered that tripe that the "clever people" would see through what he was trying to do and resist.

    Anyone know of a country where they dont care who it's citizens are and welcome immigrants without question? The more I read about this green and pleasant land and the shackles that are being placed upon us the more I want out.

    I don't want to be a UK citizen any longer and this is all down to you Tony Blair you have destroyed a place that people used to be proud of. You took us into a war on a false premise, you bring in draconian anti-terror laws, you treat your own citizens like cattle, you side with a President that has questionable motives, a very bad track record on human rights and no respect for the environment, could you make things any worse?

    Will the the last one to leave the UK please turn off the lights.
  • "Will the the last one to leave the UK please turn off the lights" is what The Sun said in 1992 to do if Kinnock won. He didn't. And Bliar isn't going to win this one either, if enough of us resist.

    I just downloaded and started to read the 318 page LSE report ( http://is.lse.ac.uk/idcard/identityrepor... ) and one thing it says (on page 257) is that one factor that will push up the cost and practicability of the stupID card and database beyond usability would be organised resistance to it:

    "Dedicated and systematic disruption by even a tiny element of the population may create an administrative burden equivalent to the cost of managing ten or twenty times that number of people. We believe, based on results of opinion polling, that this group of dedicated non-co-operators may be quite significant, possibly as high as two per cent of the population. One such person working strategically and systematically can, quite feasibly, exhaust 200 hours of administration time through the generation of queries, appeals, access requests, database modification and general civil disobedience."

    Which starts here. Fatalism, no. Action, yes.

    And, sdenham, as for Blinkett using "clever" as an insult, I'm proud to be called "clever" by the likes of him. A bit like Prescott using "slim" as an insult or Bliar using "principled".
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Let's not get off-topic, Josh. Doing so plays into the hands of the pro-ID card lobby who'll just put down resistance to the card and NIR to random conspiracy theorism.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've been having a debate with myself - half of me wants to leave the country asap, the other half says stand and fight. It's good to see so many like-minded people here, it makes me think fighting might be worthwhile after all.
    Tim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Todays silicon.com article about ID Cards -->> http://management.silicon.com/government... I think we're well on to defeating this.
  • In my opinion the large numbers of older people that are signing up to this plege are doing so because they either are,know or mourn those who fought and sometimes paid with their lives for the freedoms we younger people take for granted. Are we going to let them fight for us again? - or are we ALL going to stand side-by-side and take on the control-freak, nanny-state, corrupt government?

    And, by the way, do you all realise that if President Blair is taken ill or otherwise indesposed the Fragrant and Lovely Mr Prescott will be in charge? Bet you're glad you voted Labour !!!!!
    Patricia Smith, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • re Tony Walton:

    You are correct that the government has said that it will attempt to issue ID cards when passports come up for renewal. However, this does not mean that the passport will be the foundation of the ID card, whatever they say. They will simply try to do both at the same time.

    The reason is that the UK must comply with an assortment of international agreements on passports, which will include a facial biometric to comply with ICAO regulations, not part of the ID card biometrics. The EU are also debating what form of biometric to place on EU passports. Fingerprints are being considered, along with other forms of biometric, but this has not yet been decided.

    It will be very expensive for the British government to produce one kind of biometric passport, only to have to replace them all within a few years with entirely different technology.

    The upshot is that it is very unlikely that the government can combine the two, as they originally envisaged. They can, of course, try to force you to register for an ID card at the same time you turn up to register for a passport, but they will not be the same thing. The biometric technologies will be different.

    This gives the lie to government claims that we have to do biometric ID "anyway" for passports. Yet again, the true cost of the ID card is likely to be higher than their original proposals.
    matt palmer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In saying that I want to leave the country that of course is a contingency should everything turn pear shaped. I have a belief in my fellow pledgers that it won't come to that.

    Should we also be fighting the fact that passports are going to have biometrics just in case those slippery members of the government decide to make it compulsory to carry a passport as a back door way of implementing ID cards?
  • Tim: I've been having the same debate... Which country would be best? America is clearly out, France is quite close... :)
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The ICAO rules on passport photos

    The section on babies and children is particularly interesting and I’m also not sure if it is actually addressed directly to the baby or child. Best read replacing "We" with "Ve" and "the" with "ze".

    Babies and children
    We appreciate you may have difficulties in meeting these guidelines, for instance, perhaps head size, looking straight at the camera or keeping the mouth closed. ..... Also, for children over six months old, we must be able to see the colour of the eyes.

    http://www.passport.gov.uk/downloads/PLE...
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • For those who aren't yet convinced - there's another excellent article about ID cards on the Register today. The theme is how Labour are planning to make money out of the cards. The scariest point for me? The idea of accessing NHS medical records over the Web - secured by a PIN!

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/05/...
    Ashley, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In case people are interested, the ID Cards Bill is being discussed as we speak [12.15 Tuesday] in the Commons, Standing Committee D. You can watch it all live at http://www.parliamentlive.tv/ - just click on the relevant link.
    Kieren McCarthy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • HMM,the link didnt appear,sorry here it is folks
    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/vitamins2.php
  • The Standing Committee D has finished [1pm Tues 5 Jul]. It will be back discussing the Bill at 4.30pm tomorrow, Wed 6 Jul. You will be able to see/hear it at http://www.parliamentlive.tv/
    Kieren McCarthy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Good God!

    Now they want to criminalise us if we don;t vote for them.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4...

    Didn't it occur to Hoon that the behaviour of him and other politicians might the reason why people decline to vote. I always vote but I would refuse to do so under such an illiberal regime as that proposed by Hoon.

    Another reason for resisting compulsory ID cards
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 8000! Keep them coming people! Add this image: http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~jack/ref... to forum signatures and emails linking here :)
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Even if ID cards were proven to be effective in controlling identity theft, illegal immigration and the like, the ludicrous cost and the sheer inconvenience in obtaining them would far outweigh the argument for their introduction.

    Terrorists and criminals will always stay one step ahead of the authorities, government IT schemes never work first time, and costs are always 3 - 4 times the original estimates.

    I can think of at least a dozen far more worthwhile and effective projects that my hard-earned and over-taxed salary could be spent on; I will certainly do everything I can to avoid having an ID card.
    John Gold, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is it any wonder that we are all paranoid?
    Patricia Smith, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Those who haven't seen the communism in action as it was in Eastern Europe cannot even imagine what will come next. Those of us who lived in it can just notice the symptoms and tell the future.
    The problem is that USA and UK pretend to distribute the democracy around the globe and in between implement authoritarian regime at home.
    Read Orwell's 1984 and prepare for next legislation.
    Goldie Cross, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Having read all the comments on this site from its inception I am a little alarmed to see that they are becoming very generalised and not specific to NO2ID. I am well aware that ID Cards are part of the bigger picture and we must not lose sight of all the global conspiracies and control freakery that Bliar has bought into on our behalf. But if we are not careful we will have turned this ID Pledge site into a rant about everything and I think that tends to dilute the message and give some people the idea we are eco-warrior, subversive crackpots (I know we're not, but one has to be expedient!) Let's sort out ID Cards first and then, having formed a nucleus of opposition to all the evil THEY are perpretrating, deal with the rest.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Phew, a voice of sanity. Well said, Judith!
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can those who are just using this site to expound conspiracy theories please stop it. You are mis-representing the views of the 8000 or so people who have signed this pledge so far and are damaging this cause. If you want to start a pledge to refuse to co-operate with vitamin control, by all means do so, but don't spam pages that have no relation to your pet topics.

    Thank you very much.
    Rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will sign this pledge because I refuse to have my eyes scanned, and my finger prints taken. That information is private and no one, whoever they think they are, can have it with out my permission. I am not a criminal, and I won't let anyone treat me that way.
    I don't think many people realise the implications of the database that will be created with this system. Every single possible piece of information held by the government will be instantly accesable. Do you really think that they won't abuse such a system?
    Hugh Ellison, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I worked on a local government smartcard scheme. The costs were a fair bit more than originally anticipated and the scheme was eventually dropped.

    I know its not exactly the same as an ID card, but I know something about the technology involved.

    Please please please someone stop them before its too late!
    russell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "BT has declared itself as ‘exactly the type of company’ interested in winning the controversial ID card contract, just days after EDS hinted it too would target one of the biggest ever UK technology deals......
    ...Besides EDS and BT, other frontrunners to develop and manage computers and biometric technology behind the scheme reportedly include Fujitsu Services, Sun Microsystems and Accenture"

    http://www.contractoruk.com/news/002178....
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My apologies if I repeat the comments of anyone else...
    A great friend of mine has pointed out an interesting weakness in this idea of a fighting fund, and that is that an offence of, say, refusing to register would be a civil offence, not a criminal one. This means that a court could not uphold your right to refuse to pay the ensuing fine because it would be a simple civil matter of debt enforcement. Rather like the Poll Tax, actually.
    I could not approve of a riot as happened with the Poll Tax, but for all that the government of the day got the message! When push comes to shove, I think there's going to have to be plenty of people willing to chain themselves to fences and such like in order to hammer the message home, because that's all that can really kick this out now. I have an idea that this government is going to see this one through even if it kills them: in Parliament one hears all sorts of very cogent arguments against, and various back-benchers rebel, but it still gets through it's second-reading? Bizarre!
    Richard Gray, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've already left the country (we're supposed to be able to under EU law, but they've stopped me voting ever since) and I *really* don't want to have to trail 600 miles with my children to be fingerprinted and/or measured up for a new passport.
    I object to the cost (to me, I'm not rich) and the increased bureaucracy. Will it make international whatevering more efficient? I doubt it. It'll just be more scope for error and miscarriages of justice.
  • It’s really encouraging to see the papers suddenly brimming with articles about the ID card debate. The latest I have come across is in today’s Education Guardian. It’s entitled ‘In a spin’, and it’s about Simon Davies, one of the authors of the recent LSE Identity Project Report. Interestingly, it was Davies who spearheaded the successful campaign to prevent the introduction of an ID card in Australia. And just one quote from Davies about Charles Clarke’s angry response to the LSE report: “Nothing in our report should surprise the home secretary, as all our data came from government figures”. Explosive stuff! For more go to:

    http://education.guardian.co.uk/egweekly...
  • Assuming that this legislation is driven through, guess who's most likely to be implementing it ? EDS ?They have stated they have an expertise in ID cards - this would be the same company who are on the verge of being sued by the Inland Revenue for the outcome of another large IT project. (Computing - this week).

    Let's face it, there is probably no company with the necessary skill set or experience to deliver this database, on time, or to any given budget. All the figures (even the LSE's) are guesses by any standards.

    Just to round things off, how are they going to make it secure, or are DNA details to be made available to every competent hacker?

    This scheme will just become (another) IT fiasco, if it goes ahead, over budget, late, fail to deliver to expectations, and insecure. (That pretty well sums up every other government driven large IT project from the last 20 years - NHS, Passports, Inland Revenue, Child Support Agency - need I go on).

    We might as well just rip up £ 50 notes, it's cheaper.

    M.
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This scheme will be worse than a fiasco, it'll be a full scale disaster. There's no need to have this system in place. It won't combat terrorism, it won't stamp out immigration but it WILL cause immense problems for the ordinary British public.

    Bad idea.
    Lee, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Proponents of the National Identity Register and its associated card keep telling me that I have nothing to worry about if I have nothing to hide.

    This is why I will oppose the card. I have plenty to hide - its called 'privacy'...
    Marcus, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Perceptive letter in the Scotsman today, from a Mr Eric Begbie: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/letters....

    "In all of the reports and debate about the government's intention to introduce identity cards, one crucial point has been overlooked. None of the alleged benefits could be achieved without the introduction of a new offence of failing to carry the card at all times.

    It is time for ministers to come clean and tell us what the penalty will be. I suspect fines for non-compliance will become yet another stealth tax."
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Villains always have antidotes.
    They're funny that way. - The Tick
    Clifford Okoro, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have yet to see a government IT system that does what it is supposed to or cost anywhere near its budget. This is the most ambitious system to date, and I don't hold out any hope for it's success. Also, I can't see it being secure enough for me to comfrtably allow my data to be stored on it. Finally, All of the arguements for carrying an ID card just don't hold water.
    Andy Fletcher, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will not be forced to compromise my basic civil rights
    Ash, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I hate this goverment. It is arrogant and dismissive of the opinions of those it was elected to SERVE. If democratic process impedes its plans, it just forces it through.

    And most of all I hate that smug, self-satisfied monkey with his inane grin and messianic complex who thinks his way is the only right way and any dissent should just be ignored....
    Munawar Baggia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I believe the purpose of laws and legislation is to represent formally the standards and values that we want to have as a society. I do not wish to live in a society where needing to prove who you are to the state in order to exist is a core value. This feels about as far from the ideals I respect as possible, and goes totally against what I consider to be 'British-ness'.
    Neil Canham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Rose Humphrey: This thread on the NO2ID forums board might be of interest:

    http://www.no2id.net/forum/viewtopic.php...

    It's also worth noting that the LSE report says that it is "unclear" whether British residents overseas would be covered by the proposed legislation (page 255).
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A voluntary ID card for certain very limited purposes, perhaps. But a compulsory card we have to pay for on top of the taxes we already pay - that's a tax on our very existence. And one that cannot be tolerated.
    Adam Crossingham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The ID card scheme will destroy everything this country stands for. It is the absolute opposite of what Britain represents.

    Fortunately, the fascist idiots behind the scheme have been exposed by the true defenders of liberty in this country, the people.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Did someone give Tony a tip-off that London would win the Olympic bid and hence his last minute dash to Singapore to claim all the credit?

    They will be a worthy successor to the 1936 Olympics should his ID card scheme succeed.

    That said I'm sure that by 2012 he and his stupid ID scheme will be nothing more than a distant, though somewhat unpleasant memory and we all sit back and relax in a free country to enjoy the games.

    But not relax too much as others will follow.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The only reason his Tonyness was out there was so he could accompany his darling wife while she opened a shopping mall in Malaysia. Shame it had to be cancelled could have been a nice little earner.

    Never mind Im sure they both found something more exciting to do. Perhaps he managed to do a bit of governmental business on the side?

    But we digress.
  • I believe that the plan is to issue these pointless cards at the time of renewing our passports. Therefore anyone refusing to play ball and get a card will have to face the prospect of effective imprisonment within the UK, as they will not be able to travel. This will put us on a par with the old Soviet Bloc or Iran.
    Mike Purves, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • That's why need to fight this stupid legislation from within. Even the idea of biometrics on passports sounds like a bad idea to me.

    Perhaps Phil Booth should make NO2ID a political party. Just think of the backing you'd get Phil, especially from all us free thinking people. People who are passionate for their rights, people who want a free Britain run by a fair government which listens to the people and serves the people instead of bowing down to the whims of the USA and voices of those with money such as large multinationals. These are the people who have signed up here and now.
  • Reading the debate in parliament on 28 June, I'm interested to see the Home Secretary at one moment saying: "The Government are entirely of the view that it would be ridiculous to have an expensive card that people were in some sense forced to buy. But that is not what we will have ..." and a short time later in the same debate confirming that "We hope to make it compulsory over time; we have set that out very clearly in the Bill", and that "organisations are entitled to use ID cards to identify people ... after they have become compulsory".
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What happens to people who are unable to attend the registration centres due to ill health?
    Will we have biometric enrolment teams trawling round hospitals and old peoples’ homes?

    What about people in their late nineties?
    Will they be required to apply for 10 year cards, will they get a refund, perhaps pay-as-you-go?
    The little “joke” of the clerks (twerps) running this will it be “hope to see you in ten years”.

    The elderly.
    Will they have to enrol more frequently as their “biometric data” may change/deteriorate more rapidly?

    This government are unbelievable.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Peter: There's a thread on this at http://www.no2id.net/forum/viewtopic.php...

    It's a good question; presumably either mobile biometric vans will turn up or people in some circumstances will be exempt.

    Then there's the question of people who are unconscious (say in long-term comas). Iris scanning may be a little difficult there (unless the biometric teams have taken very close note of those eyelid clamps in "A Clockwork Orange") however if a stupID card is needed for NHS treatment such people will surely need to be on the NIR?

    And how about people in psychiatric wards who may react violently to attempts to get them to stare into an iris scanner (a relative of mine is in a psychiatric unit suffering from dementia and is very likely to react this way under those circumstances).

    And so on. It's odd, but those of us opposed to this foolishness seem able to produce more and more practical arguments against it, while those trying to force it upon us seem completely unwilling to realise that practical problems, as well as problems of civil rights and philosophy, exist. The prevailing attitude of Government seems to be to stick fingers in the ears and go "La la la, I can't hear you".
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony, thank you for the link.

    Having read the comments posted it’s even worse than I imagined. How the House of Commons can debate all these issues and yet still vote in favour of ID cards is beyond me. What is the purpose of our so called parliamentary democracy? The forces behind this scheme must huge; they don’t care seem to care about public opinion and will force the legislation through regardless.

    Oh well, perhaps having my fingerprints taken won’t be so bad after all. Hopefully they’ll refund my bus fare and maybe I’ll even get a biscuit and a cup of tea for my trouble, not to mention a lovely new card to carry around with me.

    The first time is the worst, they say.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You think that thread's bad, Peter, try http://www.no2id.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php...
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • You make me wish I lived in the UK so I could sign on. (Of course, the way the US is going, maybe I'll be signing on to a similar one someday!) Hope this one makes 10,000.
    Tom Zych, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I shall not be getting an id card as I Believe in a god who sees and knows everything, I already have a built in organic microchip called a pineal gland that links me straight up with my creator and I do not need a card to scare me into obeying laws that go against my beliefs.
    As the christian church along with mrs windsor's government seems to be trying to turn anyone who genuinely believes in god /allah /buddah /jesus /krishna (whatever you want to call him) into an outlaw, I shall put my faith in my own sense of right and wrong and I believe murdering thousands of people to increase oil profits (when we could produce hemp seed ethanol and reverse the greenhouse effect for a fraction of the cost) is not the work of a goverment that I would put my trust in. sorry mr blair but I reserve my right to freedom even if I have to sacrifice this life to gain it, given the choice between going to prison with 50,000 like minded people or giving my mind to the satanists I know which I choose.
    Gavin Smart, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I agree that the IT project probably will be over budget, late and flawed. However that is beside the point - if it was on time, in budget and perfect would you want it?

    It would: Invade privacy; fail to control immigration, terrorism and crime; prepare a tool of repression (whatever the fine intentions); consume a vast amount of money better spent elsewhere (who cares what the actual figure is?).

    That is why it it must be resisted.
    Anthony, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Agreed 100% with your points of principle, Anthony, but the cost overruns shouldn't be ignored either. There are just *so many* reasons why this is a seriously bad idea.

    I don't want, and will not have, an ID card. Period. If cost overruns are what kill the project, so be it. I don't care whether the reasons that kill it are "pure" and principled or not, just as long as it dies. And if drawing attention to the potential national cost of the scheme is what it takes to motivate large numbers of the public against the scheme then that attention should be drawn.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "What is the purpose of our so called parliamentary democracy?" (Peter Stearn at 19:37, Wednesday)

    To service the needs of corporate power. You should read 'Captive State' (George Monbiot) to see how little politicians value public opinion, expert opinion, better alternative plans, and taxpayers' value-for-money. This ID card scheme is just more of the same, with the added bonus of removing the last vestiges of your privacy. Calling what we have a democracy is a sick joke.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've just received this week's Computing magazine. On the front page there is an artical about the eBorders project which will link Government to travel firms and transport terminals so that they can bill you for leaving and entering the country.

    I presume this is where biometric passports and RFID will come into its own. Im not a Christian but this all smells of Revelations...none shall buy or sell etc. Well Beelzebub Blair get back to the pit where you belong.

    I've just heard the news about the explosions in London. No doubt this will be used to try and strengthen the Government's ID card argument.
  • As Michael Moore said in his terrifying film about the neo-cons on tv: "As soon as you begin to feel secure they will do something else to shake you up. Be afraid...be very afraid, all the time". It was inevitable that there would be 'terrorist attacks' but that they should be immediately after Bliar had 'secured the Olympics for Britain, by his personal charm,etcetera'(pause to be sick!)is cynical beyond belief. How do we deal with the inevitable propaganda and subsequent stampede for ID cards as the panacaea for all our safety issues?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I wonder what would have helped today? £18bn spent on extra policing, or ID cards?
    Liz Upton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • First of all my deepest sympathies to anyone who has just been caught up in the chaos that has happened in London but please dont get caught up in some knee jerk reaction in response to this incident.

    Have you just heard that verbal diarrhoea the Bliar just spouted about preserving our way of life and not bowing down to terrorists. What way of life Mr Blair? If you mean the freedoms that we as Britons enjoy then don't change anything and just leave us all alone we're quite happy as we are.
  • Conspiracy? I doubt it, though it is possible that one or more security services had received prior warning and
    failed to act on the information.
    The simple truth is that the bombings were probably carried out when they were because the various security services had their resources focussed on securing the G8 summit and consequently dropped their guard in London.
    However, one can be certain that the New Labour propaganda machine will cynically use this incident to maximum political advantage.
    For example, we can expect Blair's government to claim that ID cards are an essential weapon in the fight against terrorism.
    Those who remain opposed to the scheme on the grounds of cost, civil liberties etc. will be smeared as supporters of terrorism and by implication, enemies of the state.
    Yet the billions that Blair's government propose to spend on this scheme will contribute little if anything to fighting terrorism. The Baader-Meinhof and Red Brigades terrorist attacks in the 1970s were both perpetrated in states with long established ID card schemes. More recently, the Madrid bombings were carried out in a state with an ID card scheme.
    The money would be far more effectively spent by taking the fight to the terrorist networks, for example by infiltration.
    Andy Cunnell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Blair on today's London bombs:

    "It is important however that those engaged in terrorism realise that our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction to innocent people in a desire to impose extremism on the world. Whatever they do, it is our determination that they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear in this country and in other civilised nations throughout the world".

    What I hold dear is freedom: ID cards are not compatible with a free society. In the long term, the most extreme threat to our values is coming from the government, not from mythical terrorist networks. And how would today's events have been prevented by ID cards?
    John Levett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • True freedom is being able to live your life without the fear of being killed. Even with bombs going off in London, people posting to this website, seem to view ID cards as being a bigger threat than terrorists.
    Nashboy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nashboy, terrorists are a threat and obviously nobody wants to live in fear. The ID cards offer the potential for everyone to be living in fear for a long time after the terrorists have moved on to other targets.

    I would be interested to hear how you think the ID card would have prevented today's attacks (or why they failed to achieve that in Madrid, etc.)
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • '...being able to live your life without the fear of being killed' is important but not really, I would suggest, the heart of 'true freedom'. Any of us could die/be killed at any moment - that's what life in this world is like (more so for some than others!).

    Even in the midst of death and destruction people can be 'free' when they know in their hearts they are valued for who they are and are allowed/enabled to take their place in society without being coerced or oppressed by powers that have no interest in them as individuals but simply treat them as objects to serve that power's needs and desires.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards, the removal of vitamins and food supplements, possible enforced water fluoridation and vaccination, cctv cameras on every street corner, satellite tracking of your vehicle, the threat of GM foods, an illegal war in Iraq which is costing us billions, and ever-new laws to crack down on legal protest and free speech - Bliar has a lot to answer for, and we have to listen to him spouting off about 'democracy' and 'our way of life.' How much longer are we going to put up with this attack on our interests by a government which cares only about its wealthy backers?
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nashboy, it's not a choice of ID cards or terrorists. ID cards won't reduce the number of bombs. But they will reduce your privacy and your civil liberties. Without these there is no democracy. Democracy is a fragile flower, and requires constant vigilence by the people: that is why this site is here.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There are many people such as myself who have no problem with ID cards. People who feel more secure having CCTV cameras around, who want more police, who want the Government to make them feel more secure and look out for them. People like me who don't feel oppressed by the government and like the policies it has.

    In this day of globalisation, the state can no longer protect you from ecomonmic vagaries as it used to, but it can help you live safely and without fear.

    Without jumping the gun as to who carried out the bombings, ID cards in themselves could not have stopped the bombs but they could go along way to prevent people who shouldn't be in the country from being here.
    Nashboy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "want the Government to make them feel more secure and look out for them"
    - You need to be careful what you wish for.

    "but they could go along way to prevent people who shouldn't be in the country from being here."
    - This presumably depends on the ID card not being forgeable - hmm.

    Nashboy, noone can accuse you of not being an optimist. You need to look back through history (and not the distant past at that) to see how many atrocities have been committed by goverments on their own people. Just as a matter of common sense no government should be given more power than it absolutely needs to carry out its job.
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nashboy, you can't bank on a terrorist being "someone who shouldn't be in the country" - Richard Reid (the "shoe bomber") was born and bred in Bromley, so was a UK citizen who would have been issued an ID card in the unfortunate event that this country had them.

    The men who flew the planes into the WTC were all carrying official, non-forged, properly-issued US identification documents. The Madrid bombers were all carrying valid Spanish ID cards.

    So *all* of these would pass your "should be in the country" test. Which didn't stop them.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • John

    Thanks for the patronising answer.
    ID cards = common sense.
    Nashboy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thomas Jefferson is often quoted as saying: 'The price of freedom is constant vigilance.' In a large nation dedicated to the individual freedom and liberty of all its citizens, when the nation learns that is has not been vigilant enough is often when a person, or group of persons take advantage of that freedom, and abuse the liberty of others in order to further their own destructive purposes.
    Susie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Actually Nashboy, common sense would be to spend the £18 billion cost of ID cards on tried and tested means of detecting and preventing crime.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nashboy - ID cards are a greater threat than terrorists. ID cards will restrict the freedoms of every single person in this country which is something no terrorist can ever achieve.

    Many of us have relatives who fought for freedom in the war - they were prepared to die for that ideal. Now it seems that some would give up their freedom rather than face a _TINY_ risk of being killed by a terrorist bomb.
    Stuart Morgan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks for the unassailably logical argument, Nashboy. I'm sure we all appreciate it.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nashboy I think you are arguing to the wrong people here - these are the people who will confound you with their version of logic regarding ID cards and see nothing else beyond that.

    £18bn on cards? Not sure I really agree with that myself or the way its going to be implemented but they could make things in life a bit easier, and its not like they dont have all that sort of information already (passport / drivers licence anyone?)

    Besides which people, how can you honestly think that 10000 people raising £100,000 is going to do ANYTHING at all to change government policy? THAT is a waste of money more blatant than the £18bn figure being thrown around...
    Matt White, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "ID cards = common sense"? What a surprise -- you can't answer any of the practical points that have been put to you, so you're resorting to a slogan. Are you actually the Home Secretary?

    Here's my slogan. ID cards = diversion of taxpayers' money from services that need it (including crime-fighting); putting in place the architecture of a totalitarian state; miscarriages of justice and an increase in crime guaranteed, and all at ridiculous cost to us. Now admittedly that's not as snappy as your version, but it's just a tad more accurate.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hang on all of you, separate ID cards??Billions of £'s "given" to an American IT company to create them.
    WE HAVE ID CARDS already. Each and everyone of us is given an identity by the government. Its called the National Insurance Number/National Identity Card. I have nothing to hide, but do I need yet another form of identification. If the NI number system is "corrupt " as a system then what is to say that a new ID card system will not be just as useless in a few years time.
    Bill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ah, but Bill, your NI number isn't tied to a database holding details of your passport, your driving licence, your medical records, your NHS records, details of your last 10 addresses, your library book-borrowing habits, your purchasing habits... So it's obviously completely useless as ID.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "ID cards = common sense" - No, I don't think so.

    We don't know exactly what they will be used for (scope of project), even if we did - no-one knows how the project could be rolled out (Implementation), and therefore no-one can even begin to guess at a time scale or cost.

    Add to this we are meddling with unexplored (on a large scale) technologies, with unknown rates of degredation (biological) - and we are on a hiding to never delivering this project.

    I'm sorry to keep avoiding the 'ethics' of this issue, but it must be scrapped on a matter of practicality.

    We are after all not discussing the ethics of setting up a base on Mars, because we cannot yet solve the technological and logistical problems -but ID cards are different somehow - we haven't solved the Technological and logistical issues for them either -but the politicians want this so much -they are prepared to believe we have.

    "ID cards = Bottomless pit of Taxpayers Money"

    M.
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Matt White:

    You're right Matt, arguing with us about the merits of ID cards is a waste of time. It doesn't matter if it only cost £1 to implement its the principal behind the project that matters.

    Yes, the government may have a lot of the information on us that they are going to put on ID cards but at this moment in time it is quite difficult for them to produce a complete picture of an individual without some effort.

    If they do have all the information why not issue us all with a numbered card for free like our NI cards and call them identity cards. Why the need for biometrics and why charge us for the privilege?

    Look at the broader picture Matt, ID cards will not make the UK a safer place so what are they for? They are for control, to control your very existance. If you really believe you will benefit from ID cards just join the queue and collect your yellow star.

    Like some of the previous posts said in order to get the population to believe they are under attack and they'll all fall in line behind you. Well ladies and gentlemen lets see what the spin doctors have to say over the next few days. How long will it be before we are branded traitors, subversives or even terrorists?
  • The point really is that although we already have a great deal of ID, the new cards would effectively criminalise pretending to be somone else. Muriel Gray discussed thisfar more eloquently thanI could ever hope too in the Guardian:
    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffai...
    Christopher White, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think that some of the comments on here on conspiracy theories could maybe be better placed elsewhere? I am firmly against ID cards but I personally find it inappropriate to make such comments before the facts of this morning have been fully established. This pledge is about ID cards and ID cards only, obviously they are very tied up to the security issues but comments surrounding how this morning was handled (and the police seem to have been universally praised in the press) while relatives are waiting to hear whether their loved ones will survive are ill-judged and ill-timed.
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can we have a break from all this conspiracy wank, please!!! Of course there are conspiracies, but history (and human nature generally) constantly demonstrate that the 'cock-up theory' of government is far more applicable in most cases (including the conspiracies!).

    Greed, fear, and pride are far more potent catalysts of bad government than any attempt to reduce all the worlds woes to some secret organisation bent on our enslavement. Or perhaps we are all just living in a giant computer program run by aliens.

    Can the 'conspiracy theorists' please keep their theories to some other forum so that we can ALL concentrate on the job in hand.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Anyone attempting to alert pre Nazi Germany to the extremist plans that ultimately engulfed it could have been dismissed as 'conspiracy nuts' etc.
    I can understand why some think it will be more effective to keep things simple and dedicated to the ID issue only, but you can't separate the ID card plan from the agenda that gives rise to it. The ID plan is a symptom not the disease. Have you considered what it actually means if there is any truth to the basic premise of 9/11 conspiracy theory? It means that we aren't going to be given a choice over ID or any other state oppression, they will use whatever means necessary to force it through and nothing short of open rebellion on a mass scale will stop them. Ultimately it will come down to the people themselves to protect their inalienable god given right to liberty.
    I predict it will come to this over the ID plans.I pray to be proven wrong.But if and when the people are required to fight for their liberty it is essential they know the seriousness of the threat they face which means knowing more than that which only relates to the ID plans.If people don't see the bigger picture they won't appreciate the true magnitude of the threat from the ID plan
    Finally many of the claims of 9/11 conspiracy are fact not theory. And When does something become truth? when the mainstream media says it is?
    When it's been proven at the Nuremberg trials?
    It is no less true before! It just hasn't been through any of the processes that create a 'truth' in the consciousness of the mass public.
    Acelin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • All this conspiracy theory waffle achieves in the eyes of the government, is that it allows people who object to ID cards to be viewed as paranoid sensationalists. IT DOES NOT HELP THE DEBATE! However much you may believe it, and you are fully entitled to, you must realise that it's not the way to forge the arguement to try and gain wider understanding and agreement. You allow legitamate concerned individuals to be portrayed as 'conspiracy nuts'.

    In the end, any debate, any politics is all about spin to a degree, and putting across the facts to sway an audience. ID cards will not stop people hell bent on causing harm, they will cost a fortune and a national database sends shivers down my spine. However, I do genuinely belive that Tony Blair thinks he is doing the right thing with them - he is utterly misguided, but has a very strong sense of protecting the UK.

    I think that there are many posts on here recently (unlike the ones right back at the start which were centred on the specifics of the pledge) will do nothing to persuade people who can't see a fault with ID cards and may infact undermine other concerns. However strong your opinions may be, you have to put them to your audience to make them relevant to them, not just rant about how room 101 really exists. Today's events are horrific and should perhaps be talked about in a more empathetic tone, rather than suggesting that Tony Blair is analagous to Hitler.
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well said, "Me", especially where you say "However much you may believe it, and you are fully entitled to, you must realise that it's not the way to forge the arguement to try and gain wider understanding and agreement." Politicians are people too; they are often aware of intelligence and security information that can't be spread about the public domain; it is their responsibility to try to protect us, and they are not about to dismiss terrorist threats as "inside jobs" or fabrications. If we're to succeed in countering the dogma that ID cards will make us safer, we need to use the real practical arguments that exist, not start demonising and antagonising the very people we need to convince.
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • bush, blair, and most other 'world leaders' despise democracy because they know that it is supposed to represent freedom (of a 'christian' sort) .Being they are both freemasons,undermines everything they are supposed to belive in and everything they hoist on us,like this stupID non-sense You thought they were christians? ha!
    The world has never seen two terrorists with so much power. Remember the IRA? Where did the bush scum come from anyway? LEST WE FORGET. WE MUST LOOK TO RENEWABLE ENERGY and fight government sponsored oil company tyranny as well as fascist totalitarian new and hard labour. THIS govnmt STINKS.
    Glyn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This site censors comments just like the media cuts, edits and pulls articles and interviews from the people who witnessed the terror attacks today in London.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com

    How long will it stay around for...what do you have to fear - freedom of speech, why hide the truth - why censor it all it will never go away just like other facts on how the British Government/intelligence committed acts of terrorism in the past.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Let's keep focused on the issue of ID cards and the National Identity Register, please. We all agree that we cannot and will not accept them and we all feel sufficiently strongly that we are prepared to make this pledge. Some of us also feel strongly about other issues, but airing opinions here about freemasons, energy cartels, Israel, etc will only distract attention from the goal of this pledge, and may drive away potential new pledge signatories who don't agree with those views.

    If you want to voice opinions about other issues, please do it elsewhere. Antagonising your allies here won't help win this argument. Thanks.
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Friends, I have joined the cause....And in light of the recent bombings in London I really feel we should not allow ourselves to be frightened into accepting the id card or any other government bill or movement that allows them to take away our freedom, THE REAL TERRORISTS ARE PEOPLE LIKE BUSH AND BLAIR, Blair will use this as an oportunity to try and force the id card, because the pledge will succeed, and it's then that comes the real test, and I implore you all to carry through the bravery you have all shown by joining the pledge, And saying NO2ID as I intend to...thankyou
    Steve Brooks, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks Eleanor and well said Andrew. It doesn't seem that everyone agrees but hopefully some sensible debate can continue. At the moment it's descending into one extreme view shouting down another. To have a debate to try and change opinions you need to engage both sides, not dismiss one as evil/stupid/part of a conspiracy! It's not because I don't believe strongly, I just think that making the message effective is the key.
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well said, "Me". At the moment a lot of the comments on here are potentially counterproductive to the single "I do not want an ID card under any circumstances" issue (which I'll term The Issue) for (at least) two reasons.

    1) People considering signing up to this pledge are signing up in approval of The Issue. They may be doing so for cost reasons, they may be doing so because they are philosophically or morally opposed to ID cards; they may be doing so for other reasons. Whatever reason they have for approving of The Issue, there is no guarantee that they are in agreement with (or indeed understand) any of the other theories being aired here. So some people who might otherwise sign up to The Issue are not going to do so either because they disagree or because they're frightened off.

    2) The Issue has opponents. Be they Governmental (and of course the major, and probably only wholehearted, sponsor of ID cards is HMG) or otherwise, some of the more radical theories being proposed here are meat and drink to allow those opponents to say "look at the kind of people who oppose ID cards" and apply mud-slinging tactics.

    This is a single issue. The issue is that proposed by Phil Booth at the top of the page. This is not a matter of censorship, "Voice", it is a matter of pragmatism. Those signing up don't want ID cards (I personally don't care why not - for moral reasons, for cost reasons or even in the unlikely event that they do indeed have something to hide). None of their reasons are my business and not yours either. You are in a sense preaching to the converted here anyway.

    If you feel you have had some sort of epiphany then by all means "go tell it on the mountain" but please don't dilute the message that this pledge is about. If you really want to convert the unbeliever you'd be better off emailing Bush and Blair anway.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Eleanor and Tony

    I tried to enter this debate on a level whereby I could express my opinion about ID cards and not be (to use the old internet phrase) flamed. Whether you like it or not, many people do not have a problem with ID cards.

    My ID cards = common sense was a retort to a very patronising comment from John. Then you two pipe up with equally insulting and patronising comments. I have a different opinion to you. In the freedom you continually advocate that's allowed isn't it ?
    Nashboy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't think the comments were necessarily directed at you, Nashboy. I think that ID cards aren't common sense but you do, and that's one arguement that is very difficult to counter to people who believe it.

    I think the comments by me, Eleanor and Tony were trying to stop people being being 'flamed' because if you can't have a rational, reasoned arguement, you won't ever convince anyone of anything. I think people should just try to stick to ID cards on this forum, and not stray too far into other issues.

    I don't think that inflammatory language from either side helps and a lot of people agree with ID cards. I want to able to express to them the concerns without villifying 'opposition' as ignorant or stupid. You may be interpreting comments that atually make your point in a different way than they were intended - sorry that that wasn't clear from me.
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It is not my intention to patronise people of different views to mine but I am concerned that the ID Card Bill if passed will create an "internal passport" that is more sophisticated than that of the former Soviet Union and a surveillance system that would have been the envy of the German Democratic Republic. Make no mistake, I do not like identity cards but the real threat is the National Identity Register (NIR). Fully implemented, it would mean that no transaction whether accessing a public service or buying or selling goods or services could be made without reference to the NIR. This for me is very sinister and gives the State enormous power. A cursory glance at history and the World today shows that such power is usually abused. Even if this government can be trusted with this there is no guarantee that a future government would not abuse this power. It is our children (and their children) who will pay if we get this wrong, which is why I oppose the ID Card Bill.
    Paul Turner, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Surely, todays atrocities in London give weight to the argument FOR carrying ID cards?
    If you don't like carrying one, then you've got something to hide.
    Grow up, and get in the real world of real terrorism on our doorstep.
    London Victim 2005, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Believe me, I am in the real world. But for a qirk of fate I could be grieving for my sister-in-law right now. My guess is that those who did this terrible act will have had impeccable ID documentation just as those who committed the Madrid and 9/11 atrocities. However, I do not want to argue, I was not there.
    Paul Turner, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • London Victim, these atrocities give weight to the "for" argument only if it can be explained *how* ID cards and government control of ID make a difference--and shown that that difference is worth it. They could easily be worse than useless, diverting government resources that could be used in counterterrorism intelligence into monitoring and policing the ID of 60 million law abiding people. There's no demonstrable trade-off between privacy and security.
    Guy Herbert, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • London victim the best security is not ID cards but better relations with other countries and not invading them on any excuse. Show me one country with compulsory ID cards that has no terrorism, well? Every single country in Europe that has ID cards also has problems with terrorists. In other words, there is no connection between the two. Your expectation that ID cards will resolve terrorist problems is not valid.
    Nicos Souleles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • London Victim, We've had terrorism on our doorstep for a long time in the form of the IRA. I was a regular visitor to both Warrington and Manchester at the time the bombs were detonated there.

    The difference then was that people accepted the danger and they got on with their lives. As a nation we should be stoic and resolved that terrorists will never influence us - instead, through measures including ID cards, we are telling the terrorists that we fear them; that they are succeeding.
    Stuart Morgan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • London Victim - we wish you and all those injured a speedy recovery.

    Have you considered that (by a rough calculation) - just the interest from £20 Billion would provide for some 2000 full time police, who would be (imho) significantly more effective in stopping such attacks, than an ID card, forgeable, and availiable to all at a price.

    This takes no account of any ongoing costs of running the scheme, this is just the startup and implementation costs. Of course, most of this will be reclaimed from us the public, when we have to buy these things to get a passort. Who's going to explain to my kids that we cannot go on holiday abroad this year, because our 5 identity cards (which we will need) have cost £ 500 ? £ 1000 ? £ 1500 ?

    Of course what we don't pay directly will be made up by a reduction in public service spending. Where will those savings come from? The police? So we'll cut spending of police to introduce ID cards to improve security in the fight against terrorism! That seems a convoluted logic to me.

    M.
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Privacy International conducted an exhaustive study in 2004 into the relationship between National ID Cards and terrorism.

    http://www.privacyinternational.org/issu...

    "Of the 25 countries that have been most adversely affected by terrorism since 1986, eighty per cent have national identity cards, one third of which incorporate biometrics. This research was unable to uncover any instance where the presence of an identity card system in those countries was seen as a significant deterrent to terrorist activities."
    Chris McClelland, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Voice said yesterday evening "This site censors comments" and certainly my last comment did not appear at all - but that could just have been an error on my part or a glitch. I think it's crucially important to stick to the question of ID cards, and not get distracted into divisive arguments on other issues. It doesn't matter why these people, whoever they are, wanted to carry out mass murder on the Tube - if it's not fanaticism of one kind, it will be fanaticism of another kind. The central question is whether the government's scheme for ID cards would be a cost effective means of preventing such barbaric attacks. I've thought long and hard about this since yesterday morning, and I still cannot see HOW it would achieve that objective, which we all share. More Transport Police, yes, I can see that an unattended knapsack containing a bomb might have been detected in time if there were more police on patrol in the Tube, and in any case that would also address its real and apparently growing problem of problem of "ordinary" crime so it would be value for money even without the threat of terrorism. But ID cards - precisely HOW, in detailed practical terms, would ID cards be used to prevent another attack, and at what cost?
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Home Secretary has just accepted that ID cards wouldn't have prevented this attack - nor others.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4...
    Stuart Morgan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • sorry london victim (above) your argument regarding the london atrocities/stupID is yet another example of rampant paranoia that this govnmnt is relying on to force through its' evil agenda. YOUR FEAR wins this govnmnt 'told you so' votes.I have nothing to hide(if you want to look at all my private parts)go ahead and dont complain if you dont like the look of me and I also live in the real world,I, like the rest of Britain have had to put up with the ira for the last thirty years and don't need to listen to the bleating of control junkies who want you/me to give up the rights to our lives to some political/despot agenda. You can stuff your filthy ID card where the sun don't shine.
    glyn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well I'm sure preaching to the converted here but just in case anyone reads this who questioning their pledge or deliberating signing up:

    Yesterday's atrocities could not have been avoided by having ID cards. Nobody knows who terrorists are or where they are until they strike. Your next door neighbour could be a terrorist or a mate who you go drinking with who you've known for 30 years could be one. That's how terrorism works and why it's called terrorism.

    Take Oklahoma in America it was one of there own did that (but they were very quick to point the finger at Arab states). Timothy McVae (the perpetrator) even served in their armed forces so he was certainly known to the US government but it didn't stop him blowing up the FBI building.

    ID Solves nothing it just provides a single point of failure in an already flawed society.

    Who ever made the comment about staying focused is right on target. We have to stay focused and we have to stay united if this is going to work. Any factions forming with the group or any in fighting only serve to damage our cause. ID cards are part of a bigger picture but that is not the point of this site.

    We should avoid flaming and for those that come on here to try and wind us up with there pro-id card comments we should try to explain in the nicest possible way, why they are wrong.
  • Whilst a few of the "conspiracies" i happen to agree with to some extent myself i also agree that this isn't the place for it.

    The ID Cards are the issue here, whilst they are part and parcel of series of events that are rallying people together against this government and its practices our task here is to present "THIS" issue to "the people" and show them how dangerous it is and why they should join us against it.

    Confusing people, or indeed scaring them away with other theories and subjects
    isn't going to help.

    Lets take this fight to them one issue at a time and break in those too "confortable" in their shells into the revolution gently ;)
    Eden Eustice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It sickens me that our government will use the atrocities of July 7th to try to steamroller the ID database scheme.
    Now anyone who refuses to comply will be deemed a traitor.The fact that the death of innocents will be used for "political spin" should show us all exactly what sort of beasts are running this country.
    This only strenghens my resolve to SAY NO TO ID.

    Do terrorists produce ID when they steal explosives/bomb targets/buy illegal guns?
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Warning: this site leaks e-mail addresses to spammers.

    I signed here using a new e-mail account which hasn't been used for anything else. Today I received spam on that account.

    If you're going to sign, do it on a "throwaway" account.
    John Carter, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can we wait until the government has done something before criticising?! They may well do, but I think most people here probably objected to pre-emtive strikes in other contexts in the last couple of years! (and i haven't had any new spam a month after signing up!)
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If we wait for the legislation it will never be repealed. Campaign now to make sure it is never passed at all. Or would you wait for your house to be demolished before criticising the proposed bypass?

    Do not give up your privacy lightly. Say no to ID cards and databases.
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Me: I was trying to stay on topic but I have to add this.

    To compare the 'pre-emptive' NO2ID campaign to the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians by state terrorists like the US and UK is truly sick. It was the proven lies of Blair et al that led to that sorry situation: what makes you think they can be trusted now?
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I just think that extremist comments like that are not the best way to convince new people that ID cards are bad. My own personal opinions on this are largely irrelevant - I am in no way advocating waiting until ID cards are brought in object (if you read my comments earlier taht might be clear!). I strongly believe it is such an important issue with objections on so many levels, that muddying the water with all these other issues that are relevant, but not key, puts off a lot of people who do not view the world in the same way. These people could be convinced by less extreme arguements against the use of ID cards. My comment on pre-emtive strikes related to suggestions that the gorvernment may use yesterdays events to force ID cards through, not to the discussion on more general terms.

    And again - I repeat what I and may others have said here recently - by calling me 'sick' (despite the fact that I am against ID cards anyway) you really put people off. There are so many obvious flaws to the idea that personal, negative and inflammatory comments are not needed and undermine many of the reasoned, well-explained justifcations to objections already on here. This kind of discussion should be above petty insults.
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Absolutely, me, and the continuing rise in pledges, despite the events in London, should be heartening to all. Throwing names and insults around convinces no-one.

    I would also like to state that I was pleasantly surprised to see the Home Secretary admit that ID cards wouldn't have affected events. I would have bet on it being used as further justification. It's good sometimes to realise that things are not as bad as your cynicism would have you believe.
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am against the ID card, but I stopped living in a fantasy world. I suggest you do so to.

    I must admit I find messages such as "we have had the IRA for 30 years, we are used to it" pretty disturbing. Makes it sound like this was just another few bomb, big deal.

    You didn't lose a sister on that bus.
    sinfield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • What a lot of fuss...they have had biometric IDs for ages in France, aren't they less free for that? ..don't this so. Let recentre the debate will you? why would somebody NOT want to have a biometric ID?
    Eric Vaughn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Why would anyone WANT a biometric ID? They're going to cost an absolute fortune, deliver very few if any tangible benefits, and change the relationship between state and citizen for the worse.

    The main argument for ID cards seems to be:-

    We must do something.
    Implementing ID cards is doing something.
    Therefore we must implement ID cards.

    I need a massively more convincing argument before I'll agree to submit my fingerprints or DNA to a shonky database under the control of a government who've utterly lost my trust, let alone every single potential government of the future.
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Me: I don't think I'm an extremist, more of a disillusioned idealist, and I'm sorry if I misread comments.

    Your concern about putting people off may have some merit but, as ever, there is more than one way to inform people of a problem. I favour loudly exposing past lies and deceit. That may attract as many as it puts off, ne?
    Alan Chambers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think maybe some of the conspiracies are be a sign of the strength of the N02ID campaign, as it's obviously drawing in people of all types of political belief to "unite" against the proposed legislation.
    To avoid having to censor/argue against some of the more off topic comments (which are possibly damaging the message that we are trying to convey), could a forum be made somewhere for these more off topic ideas to be exchanged, and reserve this page for comments more directly concerning the "issue"?

    Too avoid this comment itself being "off topic", my greatest concern about the ID database is the fact that all our details will be in one "secure" place, creating a "holy grail" for hackers and fraudsters. Can the government guarantee that the database will be 100% secure, years in the future as well as now? If not (as I suspect) and our details are accessed, how many credit cards, loans and criminal activities will we become "affiliated" with? This is the thing that scares me the most about this Bill.
    Leigh Stallard, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Who will get these ID cards? Ans: British nationals.

    So what about 'sleeper-cell' terrorists, who may indeed be British nationals and therefore have legitimate ID cards - having come here via asylum, been here from birth, or whatever.

    How will ID cards protect us against such terrorists? Ans: They can't!
    Graham Bull, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A close friend of mine walked out of Liverpool Street, just 2 minutes before the blast.

    There is no way that an ID check would have identified a potential bomber. Anyone could go and buy the chemicals required to make a bomb and would only be detected by a search of their baggage. If I was a tourist (according to my arrival documents) I would easily be able to work with a group that was already based here that performed no evil acts except to supply the bombs to preprepared idiots who wish to be blown up in the name of God (no matter what faith).

    The only way to stop this is to develop secular peace and understanding. But then that is another rant for another day.

    ID cards would not have helped at all and that is clear. So what are they really for. The only possible answer is to keep close, overt tabs on law-abiding citizens to keep them under control. If someone was to watch your every move with a camera and follow you around day and night you would be upset, yet this is what the ID cards will allow the government to do. And it will allow criminals access to the same sensitive information with ease. Just apply for a job as a data entry clerk at the ID card centre.

    Enjoy the last bit of freedom while it lasts... would the last free person in the UK turn off the lights when they leave?
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I know that you will "poo-poo" this, but it has some interesting ramifications (if you think about it).

    In the UK it is illegal to pay a debt with a debt. It is considered to be fraud.

    Now, take out a tenner, or a fiver, and look at it.

    It says "I PROMISE TO PAY THE BEARER ON DEMAND THE SUM OF FIVE/TEN POUNDS".

    That is an IOU. It implies that the note is an IOU for £5/£10 DEBT.

    To use one, to pay for an ID Card, is paying a debt (you are placed into debt by owing for the cost of the card) with an IOU.

    We could write to the Home Secretary, requesting clarification as to how we could pay a debt with a debt without being guilty of a fraud?
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • See:

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?t...
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Good point Veronica.Also on the issue of legality,i was under the impression that it is against the law for our own government to spy on its citizens,which is why they have the USA do it for them at places like RAF Fylindales.
    If i am correct in this assumption,doesn`t the ID Database break this law (as a database of all avaliable details of the population must surley constitute "spying")?
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To all those who have placed derogatory comments on here about the 9,251 (so far) people that have signed this pledge, I suggest if you feel that strongly about the introduction of I.D cards that you create a new pledge encouraging people in favour. See how many names you get. I'll watch with interest.
    Paul Muskett, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Interesting though convoluted argument, Veronica. The statement dates back to when the UK was on the gold standard; a banknote was a promissory note that could technically be exchanged for the face value in gold. (basically; see http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes... for more). Nowadays you can take a fiver into the Bank of England and they'll cheerfully pay you the face value ... as another fiver. (I tried it once as a daft student in Liverpool and the kind lady at the Bank of England branch up there said they get people doing that all the time just to see what'll happen!)
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Silicone Synapse: I don't think there's a specific law against "the Government spying on its citizens". However there are definitely concerns that the ID Card Bill contravenes existing legislation such as the Data Protection Act, the Disability Discrimination Act and various parts of the European Convention on Human Rights. I'd recommend you looking at Chapter 12 ("The Legal Environment") of the LSE report for a lot of detail.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • John, that site requires registration. Care to post a description of what the article's about?
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The current edition of Private Eye lists 10 recent government IT projects that have gone seriously wrong, seriously over budget or both at a combined cost of £1.7bn!

    Even if the ID cards were a good idea in principle (which they are not) the government has never shown the competence to manage such a massive IT project. To suggest that the scheme wouldn't be riddled with problems is to ignore all of the available evidence.

    Everyone with any sense should resist this enormous potential waste of OUR money.
    Rohan Lightfoot, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks Tony,reading chapter 12 now...another concern:Are any of the companies which the govt. wish to sell our deatails to insurance companies,or related?
    If they are,what a tool they will have to "re-asess" everyones insurance.Maybe people who have had certain injuries/illnesses would have to pay more for such things as car insurance?
    Also,will the data be used in "profiling" people,for such issues as job suitability/future crimminality?
    I pray that this is not the case,but i suspect otherwise.
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Like everyone, I think the attacks yesterday were barbaric. The bombs were set-off on crowded tube trains without warning to cause maximum death and injury.

    The lack of ID cards has nothing to do with yesterday's attacks. In my opinion attacking Iraq has everything to do with these atrocities.

    Reducing our civil liberties as the Home Secretary is suggesting will not prevent the cause of these attacks. It may result in fewer attacks perhaps but it will not remove the real cause.

    Rather than spending billions on ID cards, we should instead:

    1 - Remove our troops from Iraq

    2 - Strengthen our police and intelligence services*

    Spending billions on ID cards may actually reduce our capability to defend ourselves. Instead of the security services tracking a small number of potentially dangerous individuals, they will have to spend time and resources collecting and analysing massive amounts of data on the whole population.

    To further the Home Secretary’s analogy; it will be like collecting data on all the straws in the haystack, rather than just concentrating on the needles. While searching for needles in a haystack is difficult it is not impossible. No one ever said the work of the security services was easy, it just has to be done.

    At best the ID card scheme will be a colossal waste of time and resources, at worst it will put in place the foundations for a totalitarian state.

    *note - point 2 may not be so necessary if 1 is carried out
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony

    It's an editorial (that didn't make it to the printed edition) couselling a calm response to yesterday's events and concluding:

    "In the coming days and weeks the public will urged to accept such restrictions on their liberty as ID cards as a price we must all pay for liberty itself. We believe that argument to be absurd and fallacious, and hope that defenders of liberty will recognise that it is exactly this kind of panic-stricken measure that will most gratify the killers".

    Amen to that...

    In my view, the strongest argument yet is contained within Muriel Gray's eloquent and affecting piece in the Guardian and it is encouraging to see that opposition to ID cards is equally strong on all sides of the political divide.
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Iraq is not really relevant to the issue of ID cards. Whether or not the invasion has exacerbated the current problem of terrorism, there will always be the possibility that one group or another, somewhere in the world, will believe that their cause justifies the mass slaughter of innocent people in this country. Or it could be just one sick person with a particular bee in his bonnet, who thinks that other people should die because he cannot get his way by peaceful persuasion, or because he's come to hate everybody in the world, or because he wants to extract some kind of revenge. Or it could even be a gang of criminals using the threat of bombs to extort money. All these are possibilities, quite unrelated to Iraq.

    The central question is this: "Would the government's scheme to impose ID cards be a cost-effective method to help prevent such acts of terrorism?"

    And the answer is "No" - which even the Home Secretary now acknowledges.

    So please, could we keep the specific issue of Iraq separate from the more general issue of ID cards as a defence against terrorism, of whatever origin?
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Heres an interesting sentence from chapter 12 of the LSE report:
    "Although the(national identity)register forms a substantial part of the bill its existence is not acknowledged in the title of the bill."
    Is this not completely typical of our governments methods?
    Sneaky sneaky...
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks, John. As you say: "it is encouraging to see that opposition to ID cards is equally strong on all sides of the political divide". Yes, it was good to see Tory, Lib Dem, Respect and Old Labour (Tony Benn) on the same platform campaigning together on the same issue at the Even Bigger Brother meeting ten days or so ago. It goes to show that this issue is beyond party politics as it affects very basic issues which are common to all who live in Britain.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I just noticed something. According to http://pledgebank.com/refuse/info

    General pledge information
    Created 8th June 2005

    Happy Birthday NO2ID Pledge. One month old today (and up to 93% of the 10,000 already)
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It seems to me that the two most important statements, which NO2ID cannot fail to build on, are those made yesterday by Mr. Blair and today by the Home Secretary:

    "It's important however that those engaged in terrorism realise that our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction" Mr. Tony Blair, 7.7.05

    (Mr.Blair, you will destroy the very values and way of life you now appear to be so determined to protect by imposing a totalitarian system on a free society.)

    "I doubt it (ID Cards) would have made a difference. I've never argued...that ID cards would prevent any particular act".Charles Clarke, BBC Radio 4's programme 8.7.05.

    Q.E.D!
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Denis Cooper,on your comment:
    "Iraq is not really relevant to the issue of ID cards"
    i would remind you that the US military are trying out biometric ID cards on prisoners in Iraq.
    Is this a coincidence?
    Should we all submit to the same treatment,as law abiding citizens?
    I must say no.
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Silicone Synapse,

    The correct question is not "Is this a coincidence?" but "Is this relevant?" Either imposing ID cards on the entire UK population would be a cost effective way to help prevent terrorist outrages, or it would not - surely that's what really matters here?
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Denis,I do agree with you that the scheme is far from cost effective,aside from my previous point concerning Iraq.Sorry if i caused offence.
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Those who actually own more than 1 brain cell will obviously ignore the poor misinformed or un-educated C H....
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re: the selling of personal details from the National Identity Register, on the back of ID cards. This has happened already, when the government mandated that all benefits were to be paid into a bank. Pension/dole books etc no longer existed meaning claimants needed to open a new account (don't really need one on £55/week).

    A newly invented Post Office basic bank account was heavily trailered within all govt literature I received, yet hidden in the small print it says all the details they held on me could, as the property of Citibank, be sold on to third parties. This is legal as Citibank is an American company and as such is not covered by Data Protection Act.

    As this government has given previous IT progects to USA companies, it remains to be seen if they follow this trend with ID card/ National Identity Register. If so, any protection allegedly offered the Data Protection Act will be flawed.
    Janie P, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Janie, this is a very interesting point about your details able to be sold on if the company is a US one. Apparently the IT project for the National Register backing the ID Cards is to be given (or is being considered to be given, which is the same thing) to an American company. I forget its name but someone wrote about it on this web page or in the Forum pages. If anyone reads this and knows more it would be good to share your knowledge.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A recent justification for ID cards (prior to the London bombing) was ID fraud. This Labour government lie is proved by the fact that payments from government are completed using the claimants National Insurance number. That is, if you receive any benefits, on your bank statement the payment transaction code is your own NI number.(The Job Centre Plus tells me only Family Tax Credit excluded as it uses child benefit number codes).

    As the NI is every Brits' entitlement code (for NHS treatment, all benefits, drivers licence, education etc) from cradle to grave, printing it on bank statements only enables criminals to validate a stolen identity. Now all on one easily nicked piece of paper.

    It has increaced the face value of bank statements on the black market, be they acquired through burgulary or bin-raiding, and left us all open to ID fraud, the very justification used for the policy.
    Janie P, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I notice that the comments by C H, posted around 22.31 yesterday, have now been removed and that kind of censorship causes me concern. Perhaps the moderator could explain why he/she has done that.

    Of course C H was wrong, in the sense that he/she wished to deport millions of innocents in order to perhaps remove a very small number of guilty.

    Anyway for this debate about the utility of ID cards as a counter-terrorist measure the motivation of the terrorists is of little relevance.

    Some animal rights groups have already engaged in low level terrorism, and it's conceivable that at some point the most fanatical individuals may decide to go further and plant bombs on the Tube. Probably the IRA still has high explosives, and a splinter group could decide to resume bombing. Zionists have a record of terrorist activity in the past, as do Christian fundamentalists, and it's not denied that the French secret service blew up the Rainbow Warrior.

    I do believe that much tighter border controls would be an effective and justifiable measure. While of course that would inconvenience innocent people entering and leaving the country, it would be far preferable to have more stringent ID checks at our ports and airports, rather than on our streets.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith
    The government is looking to give the ID card software system to an American Company, who already have a poor, if not downright atrocious, record in not providing solutions on time, on budget and working.
    The Inland Revenue system, CSA and many more are examples in this country.
    Indeed this American company, owned by a prospective American presidential candidate, (there's a worrying thought) has aready been sued, taken to tribunals, criminal court many other issues, for failing to provide products and services securely, on time and within budget back in the USA.
    We are now supposed to acept thatthey will handle the dilcate task of providing a secure ID system in this country.
    In the words of a well known comedienne " I DON'T FINK SOOO" !!!
    Bill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dennis,

    re "So please, could we keep the specific issue of Iraq separate from the more general issue of ID cards as a defence against terrorism, of whatever origin?"

    Are you the self appointed moderator for this site?

    I don't mind you telling me that you disagree with what I say but don't tell me I can't say it.

    Anyway, I think has much to do with the debate. This government has through its actions created a climate of fear which is enabling it to force through such legislation that will take away our liberty.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Bill,

    I thought a french company (Atos) was getting a big chunk of the ID Card stuff it is passed. Atos of course is headed by a Labour peer and ex cabinet minister.

    Duane
  • "The Queens speaks......following terrorist bomb blasts in central London, 8 July 2005"

    ".....But those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life. ...."

    http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page4302....

    However, the ID cards proposed by this government will change our way of life as we will no longer be a free country.
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Peter,

    Of course I'm not trying to tell you what you can and cannot say! I'm simply pointing out that the issue of terrorism is much wider than the issue of Iraq, and opposition to ID cards is much wider than opposition to the invasion of Iraq. So why risk unnecessarily narrowing the support base, by linking the two?
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well said Denis - this same debate seems to be happening on a daily basis on here! Anyone can obviously say what they want on here, but some comments are counter-productive in convincing more middle ground people of the dangers of ID cards. To gain enough public objection, many hardcore labour supporters will need convincing, and the tone of many comments on here will only make them defensive.

    It's surely also very important that these moderate views are registered on here so that people reading the comments do not only see one group of people's opinions?
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Spot on Denis; any attempt to link this issue with Iraq will only serve to marginalise the middle ground; precisely the kind of people whom we need to get this message to rather than preach to the converted. Having the likes of, say, David Davis on board counts a heck of a lot more across the country than such as, say, George Galloway. And I'm not even a Tory.

    Duane; more details about Atos Origin please, which Labour people are involved there? I believe they took over part of Schlumberger-Sema, who don't exactly have a glowing record in building databases, given that they built one based on Hollerith punch cards for the German government in the 1930s!
    Tez Burke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • According to Private Eye no. 1135:

    "Atos's contract to do pre-bill ID card work suggests it stands a good chance of winning a share of the contract bonanza when ID cards finally become law. The firm certainly has good links with Labour. Former Labour cabinet minister Lord Barnett chairs Atos Origin (UK), and Atos also helps fund the Labour-friendly think tank the IPPR... Atos was also behind the troubled "E-Booking" scheme for the NHS."
  • Tez,

    Jack's comment above has the details about Atos. Jack obviously got his information from the same source as me.

    Not what you know, is it Lord Barnett?

    Duane
  • I must comment on the remarks by Dennis Cooper, who is of the opinion that "some animal rights groups have already engaged in low level terrorism, and it's conceivable that at some point the most fanatical individuals may decide to go further and plant bombs on the Tube." NO-ONE has ever been killed by an animal rights person (although the suffering caused to animals and people alike by animal abusers is on a scale unimaginable by most), and to suggest that at some future, unspecified time AR activists MIGHT plant bombs on trains in order to bring about wholesale death and destruction on the scale of the London bombings is, to be frank, a disgusting and ludicrous idea. I wonder where he gets his info on this? Probably the same source that is so quick to tell us that ID cards, GM food, and fluoride poisoning of the water supplies are very good things. Apologies for having gone off the subject a bit, but clearly this is a disgusting distortion of the truth by someone on a subject he clearly knows nothing about. Chris
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't think we need to worry too much about the sensitivities of “hardcore Labour supporters” in winning over public opinion when you consider that only 1 in 5 of the electorate actually voted Labour. And just because they voted Labour doesn’t mean they necessarily support ID cards or for that matter invading Iraq.

    Then there is the Conservative party all of a sudden against ID cards. Weren’t they the ones pushing these cards a while ago? (And TB stood up and spoke out against them – see my previous posting)
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Chris, for example:

    Animal rights, terror tactics

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/902751.stm

    "Animal liberation is a fierce struggle that demands total commitment. There will be injuries and possibly deaths on both sides. That is sad but certain."

    However the real point is that we cannot expect that we will EVER be free from people with sufficiently fanatical views that they're prepared to kill in an attempt to impose them on others.

    For your information, although it's hardly relevant, I'm also opposed to GM food and fluoridation, as well as ID cards.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Dennis

    1. As I have said, NO-One has ever been killed by an AR person, and economic sabotage can hardly be put on the same scale as the recent atrocities in London, but is a direct consequence of the actions of a corrupt government which puts profits above all else. The ALF has a strict policy of ensuring no animal or human is hurt as a result of its actions.

    2. I wouldn't use the BBC as a source of info on anything AR or anti-vivisection. The drug industry-infiltrated BBC has a long history of suppressing all news unfavourable to the huge vested interests of the drugs industry, whilst labelling all AR or AV people as 'extremists'; their rabid promotion of vaccination was condemned as long ago as the 50s. Too much to explain here, but please see http://www.bava.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bbc...

    Chris
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Chris,

    "NO-One has ever been killed by an AR person", YET.

    But if they keep putting fire bombs under cars, in the end they will kill somebody, whatever they may say.

    I only said that "it's conceivable that at some point the most fanatical individuals may decide to go further and plant bombs on the Tube" - and it is.

    Thanks for the link, I'll look at it.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Denis,you stated that:
    "we cannot expect that we will EVER be free from people with sufficiently fanatical views that they're prepared to kill in an attempt to impose them on others."
    I cant believe you hold this view,and still steer away from the Iraq connection,for the above quote describes Bush and Blair`s War in the middle east.I disagree with the terrorists methods and agenda,but i also disagree with war,for war is Governments "legal" way of creating terror,in order to impose "our" ways on whichever third world counrty we chose.I know you feel Iraq shouldn`t be mentioned here,but im afraid that Iraq is lining the pockets of the same companies who will do very well indeed from the ID Cards.
    I also feel that Iraq is relevent here,as it was based upon lies and disinformation,by our polititians,in order for them to pursue their own agenda.Now we are expected to believe that our saftey is their primary concern.Well im sorry,i happen to think that they are far more concerned with their bank balance,and their mechanics of control,than of our collective well being.
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There was an interesting straw in the wind during the ‘Any Questions’ Radio 4 programme from the village of Deddington in Oxfordshire on Friday evening. One inevitable question raised was whether ID cards would have helped to prevent the London bombings. All four panellists, including government minister Alan Johnson, were in agreement that they would not have helped. But, interestingly, following the discussion, chairman Jonathan Dimbleby put the question to the assembled audience: “Who favours ID cards?” According to Dimbleby, the response was that “an overwhelming number oppose ID cards”. And remarkably this strong antipathy was expressed on the day immediately following the London bombings, when you might have expected there to have been more equivocation.

    If I was in government I would certainly be getting increasingly worried about the change which is steadily taking place in people’s attitudes to ID cards, as they find out more about the assumptions, costs and implications of the scheme. For any government is able to take a country to war even against the will of the majority of the population. But not so with ID cards, which will obviously require the compliance and co-operation of the vast majority of the population. The fact that government ministers are at last conceding that the ID card is not after all the magic bullet which will solve all our problems, maybe they are beginning at last to see the light.
  • Would biometric ID cards be more dangerous than the government would like us to think?

    Like the Mercedes owner who had his car stolen, along with his finger to unlock his sophisticated security system:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/04/04/...

    I don't like the idea of biometric ID cards - especially when they aren't necessarily going to be any use... in the same way "chip and pin" was supposed to cut out credit card fraud... but isn't it easier to shoulder surf someone entering a pin number, then demand their card, than it is to demand a card, and get enough practice to copy the signature remotely accurate by the time the owner reports it stolen???

    J.
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Presumably, before I could be issued with an ID card, I would have to provide some proof of identity?
    If I could not do so, would I still get one, and what would it be worth in that case?

    If on the other hand I can provide the necessary proof of identity in order to be issued with an ID card, then why do I need one?

    Yes, it's a rhetorical question. I don't really think that the "ID" card is primarily an identity document but, in actual effect, a "license". And what would it license me to do? Simply to continue to exist apparently. Because if I refuse one, steps would be taken that could very easily ruin me.

    Who owns my life?
    Martin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Martin. You have it in a nutshell. It is a modern form of medieval serfdom. We will be completely dependent on the State (our owner). This is why I oppose ID cards and the National Identity Register.
    Paul Turner, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hitler and Goebbels would be very proud that New Labour (aka the British Government) have taken up the mantle of 'tatooing' the 'workforce' with an [enforced] identity number! How many [millions] of people living in Germany in the 30's thought what the Nazi's were doing was alright? Does history repeat itself? Does the history of the most evil regimes on the planet repeat itself?

    I am opposed to ID cards for one simple reason; most of us already have TWO state issued forms of acceptable identity verification (as far as the Police/other agencies are concerned) - the Passport and the Drivers Licence - what an incredible and unacceptable waste of [our] money for them to issue a THIRD one!

    Now if only they [Tony, et al] could think of a way of bringing back the yellow star.......
    Human Interface, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The government's proposals for ID cards are not able to achieve any of the positive things that we would like, only oppression for those it proposes to protect.

    I believe an independant ID scheme would be good, but never if it is run by government.

    God help us if they ever find a way to tax us by the mile for the use our roads!
    Rod, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In reply to Rod

    No ID card system can ever be good no matter who it is run by. Any such system no matter how good its intentions, will always be abused by those who have access. Power corrupts.

    As for road pricing (I know this is a little off topic but it all comes down to governmental control and the database state), the solution is extremely simple though those in power always want to go for the technological answer. I assume this because some MP somewhere is receiving a back hander or has a directorship in a company wanting to tender in providing the solution for tracking and monitoring vehicles (another example of Big Brother).

    The solution to road pricing is very simple. Scrap road tax and up the duty on fuel. Those that drive more miles or drive gas guzzlers pay more. One government policy solved in 10 seconds by an ounce of common sense.

    Perhaps the majority of people pledging on here would be interested in forming a new political party which would seek to run the country through the use of common sense and listening to its citizens?
  • To Dennis Cooper,
    Either get your facts right or stop posting incorrectly annoying crap on this forum. It's about ID cards, which I'm against, not to air your lack of knowledge!
    Darren, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I noticed there was an article in the Observer on Sunday announcing that while Clarke "admits ID Cards probably wouldn't have stopped the London bombs, the ability to tap phones and e-mails 'at will' probably would".

    This is, of course, a spurious argument because the mechanism to do it - i.e. infiltration - already exists (whether or not this is legal is, of course, another matter. Agents Provocateurs used to be a 'step over the line', but whether or not this is still the case is questionable at the very least). For example it is well known that CND has been infiltrated since the word go, and the UK still has a 'nuclear arsenal'. Need I say more?

    By the way, I sent out a number of e-mails at the +start+ of last week - after the wobbly Commons vote - saying that "One terror attack would put Blair back on track". I didn't bother to comment here because of the censorship "Owwww! Don't speak the truth Veronica … it might turn people off!".

    (Not those with enough brain-cells to understand, Phil. Have you ever heard the expression "I do not agree with what you say, but I would die to defend your right to say it"? At the end of the day are we not fighting to retain our freedoms of speech, such that they are not blocked by having to show an ID Card first? In that case, by what right do you censor? Oh … it's YOUR pledge. No, Phil it's OUR pledgeS).

    Did anyone hear the BBC Radio 5 Interview with Peter Power, former Scotland Yard official, working at one time with the Anti Terrorist Branch? Mr. Power is now the MD of a PR Firm called Visor Consultants, which bills itself as a `crisis management advice company'.

    According to Mr. Power, his company - in conjunction with police and anti-terrorist squads - were running drills, in London, on the morning of 7th July. In fact, at the very places where the attacks occurred. The purpose of the drills? "To exercise responses to multiple terrorist bombings".

    Shades of 9/11, where the Bush Government were running 4 war game drills on 11th September, 2001 to "simulate responses to a scenario where commercial aircraft had been hijacked and used as weapons to fly into prominent building in Manhattan".
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is the final push... let's go for it. When I first signed this pledge, there was another 9500+ more signatures to go, now there are only 455 more people required. Well done. We can do it.
  • No-one has been murdered by an animal rights activist my arse...

    http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/2...

    Anyone that actually values the lives of animals about humans needs to go and live in a cave - and stay there.

    No ID-card necessary to make them, just seal it in with a rockslide and Bob's your uncle.

    I had honestly forgotten how much conspiracy nonsense there is around here. I couldn't give a rats ass about that. No to ID cards, they will not provide a tangible benefit to the UK and will change our way of life irrevocably for the worse. We will be made criminals for just exisiting without the right paperwork.

    Think about it people... and if you don't believe me, enjoy your free time now because it won't last.
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes, dear polite Darren, this is about ID cards. Nothing else. My point exactly. Thanks.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Big Brother is watching you, or at least wants to.
  • McGregor, you're talking shite, if that's classed as an AR murder then what about the murderers that eat meat, are they driven by their carnivorous agenda? You should treat others as you wish to be treated and if you don't care about killing animals then who's going to care if you get killed?
    ID cards will solve nothing.
    Darren, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Darren Wyn Rees:

    This is the final push though take up seems to have slowed down since Thursday. We all need to ask our friends to sign. If each us of could get just one more signature imagine what a fighting fund we'd raise plus the number of two fingered salutes we could present to Herr Blair.

    To all the people who have posted on here it's been enjoyable to read the various views. Some actually thinking that ID card's wouldn't be so bad they were implemented differently on one side to the other extreme that we should all rise up and form some kind of junta.

    I think Phil Booth has done a cracking job bringing us all together under one common banner. I know there are some amongst us who can see that there is a bigger picture and other agendas (me included) but those other things belong to other battles in this war.

    The battle we a currently fighting is the one against ID cards and so if we stay united and centred on this cause we will win. If we move off centre towards the extreme edges on both sides we will scare off those we are trying to win over.

    Please keep it friendly save the back biting, in fighting and low level flaming it serves no purpose and only lends fuel those we fight against.

    On to the 10000 pledge hopefully by the end of this week.

    Duane
  • Darren, there is no need to be nasty and hate filled over my opinions. I agree with you, you stupid dimwit. ID cards will solve nothing.

    Christ, if you really want to play a game with semantics then lets begin, but the idiot in the news story was driven by his AR beliefs to murder someone.

    Meat is not murder, but that is my personal opionion. Animals do not equal humans, we are not on the same level but again that is my opinion you are entitled to believe what you want but if any AR person hurts me, my family or my friends because they are unprepared to allow me to believe what the hell i like, then I will rip their skin off and dip them in salt.

    Still ID cards will achieve nothing.

    We now live in a society where our very beliefs and desires are coming under stricter and stricter control. I will soon (i am sure) not be able to buy the fatty foods i love.

    Enough of my rant. Darren, just leave it, if you want a public ranting match then carry on but please learn a little politness. It is that sort of reactionary response that leads to the sort of events such as bombs in London. GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF and try to be a bit more civil.

    P.S. ID cards will not help at all.
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Duane Phillips,

    An ID system whereby you can prove that you are who you say you are, and where nobody else can pretend to be you, would be a good thing, surely! But that's where it should stop. Any digitised biometrics should be verified by a trusted person and stored on the card, only a hash of this information should be stored centrally NOT the data itself. The card owner can then release the hash for verification by providing a biometric and a PIN (There are a whole raft of technical issues here, without rambling on all I'll say for now is that the technology isn't upto the job yet!).

    In this scenario the central managing body is not in a position of power so cannot abuse their position.

    However, this nannying government has got a bit too big for it's boots and seems to have other ideas to abuse our personal information... I'm seriously thinking about leaving the country!
    Rod, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm just curious; if the situation escalates, how many people here would actually go to prison, rather than be forced into owning an ID card? I think I would... but it's a decision I'd rather not have to make.
    xx
    Helen Clavering, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Helen: None of us want to make that decision, and at the present time we don't have to.

    In 1992 I reached the crossroads over the Poll Tax, and had actually decided to pay the damn thing. Then I went to court and it was such a Kangaroo affair that my resolve hardened, that I refused to 'lie down and let them walk all over me' (so I ended up in prison after all). But they never got their money, and it cost them about £13,000 all told.

    It was 'one of those choices I made at the time', and I don't regret it for an instant. The 'screws' were very understanding ... bearing in mind they were being forced (very much against their will) to either pay the Poll Tax or lose their jobs. I was told by a couple of them that - but for their jobs - they would be sharing a cell with me.

    And so it will be with the ID Cards. There is every chance that the Civil Service staff will refuse to implement the scheme ... or at least 'bog it down'.

    Cross bridges when you come to them.
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards won't stop attacks like those on Thursday 7th July 2005. The government admits this. The government's own watchdog reports that ID cards won't help us. Foreigners visiting the UK won't be required to hold an ID card, so are free to enter the country and commit terrorist acts. Radicals living in the UK already will be given an ID card, thereby legitimising them. How is any of this going to help us?

    I have a passport and driving licence. Why do I need anything more? This is a tax on existence, and I won't be a part of it.
    Chris Haynes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The very idea of ID cards sends the worst kind of shiver down my back. What intrusion could be worse? This arrogant and bullying govmnt sucks and I will NEVER SURRENDER - after all, what was the last world war about? do we really want to live under a nazi regime that calls itself social?
    WE MUST FIGHT THESE NAZI BULLIES
    glyn
    glyn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If you want to see the shape of things to come check out today silicon.com--> http://software.silicon.com/security/0,3... and see what the paranoid USA are upto now.

    Duane
  • Blair speech to house

    ACCELERATED TIMETABLE
    "There is then the issue of further anti-terrorist legislation. During the passage of the Prevention of Terrorism Act earlier this year we pledged to introduce a further counter-terrorism bill later in this session. That remains our intention. It will give us an opportunity, in close consultation with the police and the agencies, to see whether there are additional powers which they might need to prevent further attacks.

    As to timing, my right honourable friend, the home secretary, pledged to publish the bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in the autumn with introduction in spring 2006, so that parliament had time to digest the report on the operation of control orders produced by the independent reviewer, Lord Carlile. I do not currently see any reason to depart from that timetable.

    However, that is subject to an important caveat. If, as the fuller picture about these incidents emerges and the investigation proceeds, it becomes clear that there are powers which the police and intelligence agencies need immediately to combat terrorism, it is plainly sensible to reserve the right to return to Parliament with an accelerated timetable"
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Front page of the METRO (Free daily newspaper distributed on London Transport)

    "It has been predicted that controversial measures such as ID cards, which ministers argue will help combat terrorism, could now be passed almost unopposed."

    Predicted by who?

    "Civil Rights group Liberty last night refused to critise the move, instead praising the Government's response to the attacks. 'At the present time we face a very testing situation,' said Liberty campaign coordinator Doug Jewell"

    Is this true?
    Peter Stearn, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I suspect and hope the Liberty comment was taken out of context with a little spin put on it to cause confusion.

    D.
  • McGregor,
    Have you ever stopped to examine your beliefs?
    On the one hand you deem it ok to kill creatures because it suits your tastes but then you avow to torture anyone that would harm your family. The bombers view us as you view animals, i.e they'll get away with murder for as long as they can. Eating meat is quite a fanatical pursuit itself, it's amazing how defensive people can get over it. You choose to define meat as not being murder, the bombers choose to define what they are doing as Allah's will. My message wasn't hate filled, it was just very matter of fact, I'm saying that if certain people, like the bombers, have no regard for life then they can't complain if their property gets targetted. Putting devices beneath cars is , in my opinion, barbaric but then so is killing animals for food, the sooner we evolve and stop both evils the better.
    When you start to view animals as something more that things then you realise just how precious people are.
    You only have to look at the arrogance of the bloodthirsty Hunting fraternity to see how little they think of their fellow man, how many protestors have been killed by them?
    NO TO ID CARDS (just so I don't go completely off track!).
    Darren, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm very suspicious that my faith, christian, will be used against me. Am I too suspicious? then why can't my professionally qualified pastor validate my identity to Goverment bodies? thats clearly a change in Government direction to exclude people of faith. If I state that its against my faith to participate in any scheme that uses biometrics as means of identification, based on Rev 13, then will I be refused medical care? access to schools for my children? but it won't stop the government taking my taxes!
    I have refused to supply a photo for my driving licence for many years and when my passport expires I won't renew. It's quite simple, if enough people fail to comply then the scheme will just fail.
    Derrick Golding, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Helen,

    Just think: if you had to produce an ID card anytime you were asked, then you might as well *be* in prison.

    Don't worry about it for now. The decision will be an easy one when the time comes.
    Adam Stiles, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Robert McGregor & Darren:

    One must remember that one man's terrorist is another man's fredom fighter and that acts of violence never solved anything.

    That is why this pledge is advocating civil disobedience. If ID card's are brought in we're not all going to go and pick up the nearest AK47 or a couple of pounds of C4. Such actions only cause a limited effect and cause the opposition to dig their heels in.

    We are going use a far more effective weapon, chaos. Chaos by not conforming by not bowing down. In order for us to raise this chaos we have to stick together, we have to stand united.

    In answer to Helen's question if this government chooses to imprison me because I believe what is doing is morally wrong then so be it. At that point we may as all give in as justice and society will have broken down. I suppose now is probably a good time to make a donation to Amnesty International.

    D
  • Nick Cohen, writing in today's 'Evening Standard', hasn't been cowed by the attacks into accepting ID cards, which he calls "offensive in principle and an unEnglish abomination."
    Oliver Coombes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • yes, all the politicians seem to be praising tony blair for his courage in the wake of the attacks! they are all on side and i see little resistance to the id bill now!!
    also i can imagine how public opinion has been swayed!
    dont u think its funny how the israeli embassy got prior warning but the public didnt!!
    stranger still a crisis management company called visor consultants were hired by another (unnamed!) company to run an exercise involving the mock scenario of bombs going off on the london underground on that exact same day!! imagine their suprise when the 'terrorists' attack not only happened on the same day, but at the same locations and the exact same times!!!!!
    strange no one has come forward to claim responsibility!
    also strange i find, is the 'terrorists' choice of location!
    if they really wanted to cripple our way of life why not bomb parliment, canary wharf, the royals? they could easily of done that!
    im afraid my friends the rabbit hole goes very very deep!!!
    but one thing i will say is that i shall never be a slave to the system and i will never be a number!!
    and i will never believe what i am told by the media.

    go to www.ministryoflies.com
    fluffy pumpkin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • PLEASE STOP POSTING CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

    IT IS EXTREMELY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE AND IRRELEVANT.

    There are enough reasons to oppose this ludicrous waste of taxpayers money with invoking tall sounding tales.

    Unless the tiny minority of people posting conspiracies are in the pay of new labour and want to discredit those who oppose this unpleasant and nonsensical scheme...... Now theres a conspiracy....
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • rob......
    suprise suprise, im not in the pay of new labour!
    secondly what i have posted here is fact!
    i will leave it up to others to make their own mind up whether they think its a bit fishy or not!!
    and i will thank you for not trying to discredit me and make a rubbish of important FACTUAL information!
    thank you
    fluffy pumpkin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Anyone calling themselves 'fluffy pumpkin' deserves to be taken very seriously indeed.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • well done alisdair!!
    another triumph for free speech and free thought!!!
    that is a very childish statement!!
    i bet your parents are very proud!!
    i suggest u go back to muppett land with your friend rob and swallow every bit of propoganda u can manage!
    if u have nothing of interest or intelligence to contribute then please leave it to those of us who have a brain!!
    thank you!!
    fluffy pumpkin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Fluffy Pumpkin - I'll leave your words to speak for themselves.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Will we go to prison for refusing the ID card?" It is a real posibility as the same Magistrates laws to imprison those who refuse to pay council tax could be used against refusniks, as non-agreement can be classed as a debt.They will want to make examples of the few to deter the majority from dissent.

    More worryingly, without an ID card we will no longer be able to verify -to Government satisfaction- our right to access State services such as GP, hospital and education services. The Establishment know they have the poorer sectors of society over a barrel, thus need not use the "prison" stick, as those reliant on State Pension, Child Benefit, Disability or Sickness benefits or Income Support will have these payments stopped. Without "appropriate" documentation, the State will say it cannot be sure payments are going to the right people so are unable to continue paying out. Nice touch for an allegedly Labour government.

    For many this is not a consideration. As someone who is reliant on NHS treatment & benefits through disability, stopping this access is blackmail.

    But hey, I'm reasonably photogenic & very arsey, and will thrash them in the press when they do. Patricia Hewitt/David Blunkett will rue the day they meet me. :)
    janie p, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I met London Labour MP Kate Hoey today at a function. I asked her about ID Cards. She confirmed she had voted against them and would do so again. I asked her if she thought the bill would be pushed through Parliament. She said she thought not, but that the Lords would anyway either throw it out or dismember it.

    I have also been picking up bits of information from radio listener friends and acquaintances all of whom say that the public comments are almost to a man/woman against ID cards (as was the case with the radio "Any Questions" immediately following the London attack). I am telling you this in order to encourage you (and me) to not lose heart and feel that Blair will get the stampede to ID that he wants so badly (why?? - it can only be the US connection).

    Speaking to people today as well I feel that the spurious connection made between the London bombing and the blitz is not being swallowed. So, onwards and upwards! We've nearly got the 10,000, let's start the next 10,000!
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There are whole classes of people for whom the ID card/NIR will never work, regardless of technical competance or cost. So far there hasn't been a sinlge word (that I know of) from the Govt. about how it intends dealing with these people.

    For example:

    People with mental illnesses, esp. those with paranoid delusions, who simply will not begin to cope with anything like this.

    All the people who are already on the margins of our society whose lives simply won't cope with the demands of such a scheme.

    The old saying is that the test of a civilised society is how it looks after its most vulnerable members. It's difficult to see how that test could be passed when implementing the scheme we are opposing.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A worrying thought - if someone *is* sent to prison for refusing to pay their stupID card fine, what's about the third thing that'll happen to them (after being issued with a prison number and a uniform)?

    How about - "Prisoner number AK4712345 - report to the prison biometrician for your details to be taken for your ID card".

    Sigh.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My biggest concern about id cards is that both Hitler and Stalin thought they were good ideas -- nothing more to add really!
    Mike Heckman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • OK - So here's the story behind the story... The government is actually responding to their fear of apathy by suggesting ID cards as something that even they know is unacceptable and will force us all out of our sleep and into action. OK, so they get known as more right wing than the Conservatives but... Hey, they are true servants of the people!

    How's that for (another) conspiracy theory?

    It's about as likely as all the others.
    Anthony, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • NO2ID!
    David Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • NY 9/11 : fear .....result ....demand for more police and more control ..........and eventually more war against "terrorists" ...........Who did it ? Who REALLY benefits ?

    LONDON 7/7 : more fear .........more demand '.......of course ! clearly!
    today scotland yard said they found fingerprints on a detonator(5kg military explosives bombs!)! ha ha ha well done boys !(i am sorry for the victims but it is so ridiculous ......and unfortunately so predictable though !).........
    Please don't be fooled ! even dumb terrorists would not leave that easily their fingerprints, (what about gloves?)

    NEXT INNOCENTS ?
    NO2ID NO police states
    RESISTANCE !it's chantage!
    THE TRUTH ;
    war on terror = war on freedom
  • Anthony: A 'true servant of the people' would not have lied to commit British people (troops) to die in an illegal invasion in Iraq. It would heap the iternal shame of millions of innocent Iraqi deaths upon these islands.

    Rob: I've just re-read the pledge I signed. Can you tell me where it gives you the authority to 'shout' (in capitals) and order us all about?

    Are you a Sergeant Major or something?

    You're very materialistic aren't you? It's just a 'waste of taxpayers money, is it'? Well I don't see you jumping up and down about the colossal waste of money, life and limb that is the Iraqi invasion.

    In case you don't geddit, Rob, ID Cards are the thin edge of a very big wedge. Brought to you by the same bloody-minded 'Oh, so caring' 'true servants of the people'. Or had you forgotten?
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Is Blair a 'true servant of the people'?
    no way! only to his masters ! ... first of all ,...... the queen !
  • I'm very surprised no-one has picked up on the fact that the police raided 6 or 7 addresses in and around Yorkshire in the last couple of days, carried out a number of controlled explosions, and believe they know they suspects now. One of whom was reported missing by his parents at 10am on the day of the bombings.

    How did they connect the bombings to the Yorkshire addresses?

    Good old CCTV footage. No need for ID cards.

    That said... I do believe ID cards can serve a purpose, especially in cutting down credit card application & benefit fraud (The number of times I've been in the post office queue and seen some local immigrant youth trying to claim a pension is quite scary!)

    Of course, if Credit Card companies keep sending invitations by post with "Guaranteed acceptance"... and not require any biometric data, then it's always going to be open to fraud....

    I am still concerned that the technology isn't fully ready, and that our data may be exploited, so for now, I'm still against ID cards... and as long as I have to pay for them myself, I'll ALWAYS be against them.

    J.
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well done, Jason. You can tell that someone in a Post Office queue is an "immigrant" and is committing fraud by sight. It just shows that the warnings about dispproportionate demands for ID cards from people who "look dodgy" ("immigrants" in other words) will likely be the norm, if even those who say they are against ID cards have that sort of attitude. (By the way, it's perfectly legal for someone to pick up someone else's pension if the pensioner is, for example, housebound. I, though fortunately not an "immigrant", so presumably perfectly acceptable to Jason, did that for years for my partially-sighted grandmother).
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No, you can tell when someone is an immigrant when the council stops housing pensioners in a whole cul de sac of maisonettes, and allocates it to the immigrants (legal ones).

    Is it not possible to identify an immigrant by sight and sound??

    The post office were all to familiar with this chap, as he'd tried it before with someone else, and the woman behind the counter actually KNEW the person whose pension he was trying to collect.

    So please don't accuse me in a round about manner of being racist. Do you think, just because this chap happened to be an immigrant and I say that fact, that I have something against all immigrants? I have a problem with criminals, full stop. It doesn't matter to me if they're black, white, legal or illegal immigrants, or members of the clergy... but don't judge MY character simply because I say what I saw. He was an immigrant, ok? We do have them in this country, and it's not racist or illegal to call them immigrants.

    I agree it's perfectly legal to pick someone elses pension up with their permission, but not if you're trying to pass yourself off as that person.

    J.
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • veronica - very well put! its not just about what the card will be used for now, but what it will be used for and who will b allowed to access the register in the future.
    who knows what the statesmen and women will decide we need protecting from next!!??

    Jason. ok so you are opposed so long as you dont have to pay for them? that is the sole basis of your argument against them then?

    crickey!!! we are a shallow bunch! what about your privacy? your right to lead a free life?
    fluffy pumpkin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm for them in principal, and the cost is not my sole reservation.. I AM concerned about my privacy, especially if it's handled offshore (especially considering my bank, Barclays, offshored their services, only for a number of customers to have their account details sold to the Sun...).
    I'm not sure it's going to affect my 'free life' though, if they're used properly. IE: For opening bank accounts, applying for benefits, etc, it's no more inconvenient than having to take a telephone bill or other utility bill (which can easily be obtained should I wish to rummage through someones bin) to prove who I am. It may also help for traffic accidents - I was hit in my car once by an uninsured driver, who gave his brothers details. I think biometric ID cards could have helped prove that.

    If it helps cut out petty crime, benefit fraud and identity theft etc, then I'm all for it (apart from the cost, yes!)... but not if they're being touted as a surefire way to combat terrorism (oh, 'bombers', sorry, for the political correctness brigade who have even twisted the BBC's arm into re-editing all it's early footage to change the words 'terrorist' to 'bomber' as it unfairly tarnishes them (!!!!?????)).

    I'm not sure where I stand actually.. I was all for them at first... then dead against them when they said they would be compulsory AND have to be paid for by each person... but I'm still in the middle now, leaning towards 'against', as they will not, as has been said before, benefit us from 'foreign visitors' committing crime undetected (even the ones who have been here for some time), and unless they are bomb proof, what good will they be in identifying suicide bombers?
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • “Unlawful, unworkable, unnecessary - the retention of internet records would not stop terrorist attacks”

    Another interesting article published in today’s Guardian from Simon Davies, director of Privacy International and one of the authors of the recent LSE Identity Project Report. This one focuses on Charles Clarke’s latest brainwave - what would amount to a full telephone/internet wiretap on every user, surely taking us well on the way to George Orwell’s telescreens in every room of the house. Davies describes this as: “another insane technology fixation conceived in a vacuum and nurtured on rhetoric”. You can read the whole article at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/...
  • I think that's one of the things that bothers me most about this mess. The people who can see the benefits of ID cards for themselves - such as a friend of mine who happens to like being eighteen, but doesn't look it. How can you accept a system like this purely for the sake of convenience? If you need identification for your job and whatnot, fine, go and get some, but don't force a national system on those of us who find it unnecessary. Selfish, and blind if you can't see that like V says, it's the thin end of the wedge.
    xx
    Helen Clavering, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well,its official folks...Terrorists all carry ID so that the authorities can find it when they bomb us.
    It happened on 911 {when a terrorist passport fell out of the wtc,even thou the whole plane vapourised)and it happened in Madrid and London.
    Now,aside from the other anomalies in the attack on London,such as the Peter Power interview and the Israeli radio report(both mainstream reports,both now vanished and treated as wacko by all the good sheep),we also have Clarke lobbying the rest of europe for Total Data retention....I ask you...
    Scratch the surface,and it stinks...
    Now go back to sleep and soak up the messages of the state,while totallly discrediting anything you do not want to believe,by calling them "conspiracy theories".The media is a clever tool ,yes.But it still amazes me how so many people blindly believe everything they see/read...
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So what's your point, Silicone Synapse?
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My point is that the attack on London is already being used by those in power to accelerate the powers which will control us all,not just terrorists.If we have to pay for terrorism by the loss of our liberty{ie being tracked,spied on,tagged},then this seems like the terrorists have got what they want...Theres alot more than meets the eye here.Some of our own people dont seem to mind who they deal with in order to get what they want....see the below link,mainstream news.
    http://www.w3ar.com/a.php?k=538
    Silicone Synapse, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The thing to keep in the forefront of our minds (and those of our limited intelligence elected representatives in Parliament) is that regardless of whether a suicide bomber (British, foreign or from Mars) has an ID card or not, the "authorities" will be wise AFTER the event. The terrorist - or "bomber", if that is more p.c. - may have driven a Honda and not a Ford, or liked jam not marmalade for breakfast but if we know this after he's killed himself and other people - so what?

    If, on the other hand, the "bomber" manages to escape the carnage is he going to conveniently leave his ID card at the scene so the police can run over to his house in some suburb of Leeds, or wherever, and pick him up?

    And even, if by some miracle, he wants to be martyred by British security services (instead of going straight to the 19 virgins waiting for him in Paradise), and some clues lead to him, then he would be only too glad to identify himself as "the one that did it".

    How does forcing, and criminalising, all of us decent citizens to have ID cards impact on any of the twisted logic of the kinds of home grown or imported fiends who are prepared to carry out these kind of atrocities?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Veronica and pumpkin:
    I'm not ordering anyone about, I'm asking very nicely if people would stop putting up conspiracy theories. This doesn't help the cause that this pledge promotes as it makes it appear if people who oppose the pledge are paranoid "whacko's" as I believe the slur goes. The centre (politically) need to be convinced that id cards are a bad idea in order for them to be scrapped, and it would be better for the country if this happened before everyone is fingerprinted and tagged like cattle. There are plenty of reasons to oppose id cards without even bringing the israeli embassy into the debate.

    My views on the iraq war are irrelevant to this issue so I didn't mention them. This is not a "being right on" competition. Yes this scheme is a waste of taxpayer's (ie yours, mine, everybodies) money. This could surely be better spent on schools, hospitals, police, foreign aid, and well almost anything else you care to think of. I don't see how pointing this out makes me materialistic. You are quite correct though that there are many other reasons to reject this revolting piece of legislation, the sheer impracticalities for one, and the change in the relationship between citizen and state for another.

    I would disagree that this is the thin end of the wedge. The wedge is starting to get a bit thick already, some of the anti-terrorism legislation has already been (ab)used by this government against peaceful, legal protestors.

    I'm pretty sure we want the same thing anyway (ie no id cards). All the best.

    Judith: This is indeed good news. I too would be surprised now if this legislation made it onto the books.
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have just been to visit one of my clients. Whilst there I carefully steered the subject onto ID cards in order to try and find some new pledges. The comment I got back was "We seriously need them [ID cards] now in light of last week's carnage!".

    How do you argue with that? These people are intelligent professionals though they obviously lack vision.
  • Judith is right - We are all using this site to vent our personal frustrations at this putrid plan. Now we should all concentrate on what we are going to do about opposing it - our words mean nothing to the scum who wish to control us. So we must start thinking of action before ID is upon us. We could start by organising a mass blockade of parliament, a mass (peaceful) sit down where we would stay and demand that these insults to our way of life remove themselves from office (like the Russians did or the French do). Come on people start thinking, times running out. ID therefore I am? NO2ID!
    steve lane, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    I think the point I would make to your clients is that ID cards do not prevent attacks such as last week's nor does the absence of them inhibit police investigations. It has taken 5 days or less for the police to identify the suspected bombers. Despite the huge 'disadvantage' of there being no compulsory ID card at present.

    That's a negative point. A positive point would be to say that £18 billion has been earmarked for the implementation of ID cards. That money would go a long way in funding targetted surveillance of terrorist groups. The sort of intelligence that might thwart future attacks.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    Yes, you pose a difficult and serious question, and I wouldn't try to suggest otherwise to anybody. My advice, for what it's worth, is to engage with the opinions and positions of others as far as possible and attempt to find whatever common ground there is. Try to avoid the sort of intransigent confrontation that simply entrenches positions. Remember that if you want to persuade someone to shift their opinion, the best way is to set an example by shifting yours to address and respect their concerns.
    I'm not saying I'm any more capable of achieving this ideal than you or anyone else, just that it is to be striven for.

    Secondly, I don't see that the implied choice between "giving in to terrorism" and "giving in to despotism" is anything but artificial.
    I don't think we should give in to either.

    Thirdly, I don't object to others using biometric-database ID if they wish to do so. I object to the Government making it illegal to live without it.
    Martin Baxter, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • good point steve.
    whatever our personal views, we all agree that ID is a bad thing.
    i am a member of liverpool no2id and when i attended the first meeting i was shocked at the lack of turnout.
    i think whenever possible we should join groups like this and form a stronger national network to take positive action...... and soon! if u havnt plz join your local no2id group!

    www.no2id.net
    fluffy pumpkin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane - Some useful hints on how to argue the NO2ID case in the "How to Win" booklet, downloadable here:

    http://www.no2id.net/downloads/index.php
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • rob, I think there is a distinction to be made between "conspiracy theories" and the sheer bloody-mindedness of human nature compounded by potential abuse of power.
    Example: after the Bishopgate IRA bomb in the early 90s, Police Checkpoints were added to the road systems at main entry points into the City of London (I go past 2 on my regular bus journey into work.)
    Anyway, police manning the checkpoints had authority to stop any vehicle they chose and inspect it.
    And, as was observed at the time, a somewhat disproportionate number of cars that were stopped were being driven by black males, who are, of course, well-known for being prominent supporters of Irish Republicanism. Not.

    The current climate has the potential for this problem to become far, far worse for obvious reasons - merely with different "victims".

    The imposition or otherwise of ID cards won't change the actions or attitudes of certain individuals; what matters is the potential for abuse of authority position inherent in them (and in related legislation.)
    David Brain, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Agreed david, I'm getting seriously fed up of hearing alternate theories about 911 though. They're not relevant, whatever else they might be.
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Now that Blair is EU President he wants to push his agenda through even more:

    UK EU presidency aims for Europe-wide biometric ID card

    http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july200...

    Remember that the US Bush Admin want all Brits to have compatible chips in these ID cards maybe even passports now too unless they go for this option:

    UK biometric ID card morphs into £30 'passport lite'

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/08/...

    Whatever happens it is clear from now on (and was from the start for me) that we have to defend not only our civil rights , human rights, liberty and freedom but our way of living - we can make this world a better and safer place to live - politicians are a huge part of the problem always have been.

    It was clear to me from the start that we had to defend our life - our freedom and human rights from this police state we have entered which if powered by 'Big Brother' elite institutions and corrupt politicians among many others among the corporate state tat rules us.

    If we allow these elite to take away our rights, our freedom and our privacy then we will be making a decision for all future generations which will have implanted chips in them at birth and their DNA taken at birth even though they are innocent human beings! This is very real people, many politicians and corporate giants lobby for such things in the United Nations, U.S. Government and European Union which are all owned by Institutions (Banks and Bankers, since 1913 the USD has been owned by them which aided the elite hijacking the USA) plus you all know how corrupt the EU is and how they support corporate state over it's citizens just like the UK, why allow a small ring of the elite to have so much control, so much of our hard earned money? You can be sure they won't put it to any use or back into our country the only part they do put back in goes into the black economy for secret research and experiments (several Trillion a year).

    ID cards will most certainly lead to implanted chipping in us and the DNA database we all want to avoid - because the Biotech giants will use it to bioengineer new biowarfare and GM food like they have done in the past.

    Don't surrender your life to them by accepting ID cards - or institutions will own you - they are the ones who fund many corporations that have great corporate domination - they are sick (the things they do - if only you all knew).

    http://prisonplanet.com/Pages/Jul05/1007...

    In light of the recent 'terror' attacks in London now some corporations say they can provide body scanners which would cost between 200,000 - 2,000.000 per station/terminal. Which won't help protect anyone at all - they need to fight the cause not the symptom. Who stands to gain and benefit each time?

    http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/arti...

    Never surrender your freedom.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The so called claimed responsibility of the London 'bombings' was from a message board as most of you know, but did you realise that after investigators/researcheres discovered the website it had been posted on was hosted and run by the Bush family - later after this the corporate state sponsored terrorism elite must have realised we're not so dumb - they released two more messages on different message boards similar to the first one because the first confirmation which was a hoax anyway was foudn to be linked tot he Bush family.

    Phony 'Al-Qaeda' Responsibility Claim a Proven Hoax
    Prison Planet | July 8 2005 [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8496293/]
    With regard to the so-called claim of responsibility for the London bombings from an unknown Al-Qaeda group which the British government is treating as 'serious,' MSNBC reported,
    MSNBC TV translator Jacob Keryakes, who said that a copy of the message was later posted on a secular Web site, noted that the claim of responsibility contained an error in one of the Quranic verses it cited. That suggests that the claim may be phony, he said.
    "This is not something al-Qaida would do," he said.
    Furthermore, the website posting doesn't even claim personal responsibility, it simply references "the heroic mujahedeen" in the third person. The posting praises the attack, it doesn't even take responsibility for it.
    These facts didn't stop countless newspapers and Neo-Con websites automatically assuming Al-Qaeda (or Al-CIAda) was behind the attack.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I believe that the same public apathy which makes it hard for sufficient opposition to be marshalled against the introduction of ID cards will work equally well in the opposite direction.

    It will be impossible to persuade sufficient numbers of people to register for the card when it comes. Those of us who have not registered will, in my view, be so numerous as to make the scheme unworkable.

    After that, we will have on our side the millions who register but are unable to pay for lack of funds.

    Thirdly, there will be the inevitable and enormously expensive IT teething problems with the computerised ID card records.

    And that is before the enormous expense to the judiciary of going through the prosecutions. Remember the poll tax ?

    We may very well not have to argue about whether a terrorist is a bomber or an immigrant after all. In the meantime the money saved should be spent not on schools etc, for all the good they do, but on effective infiltration and neutralisation of those groups who are intent on killing or maiming us. We can argue about civil liberties etc after they have all been either locked up or deported. We need to remind ourselves that if they aren't caught and locked up or deported before they bomb us again, some of us won't be alive to discuss civil liberties.

    Peter H.
    Peter H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • John Welford.


    They have illegaly monitored all of our electronic communications for decades. Intelligence agencies record and monitor all electronic communications illegal breaking international laws and EU laws including human rights laws.

    If we allow this to happen what will we allow to happen next.

    Intelligence agencies such as the NSA seem to class themselves to be above all laws when to the genral public they are not supposed to be since we live in a so called 'Democracy' of course that is an illusion also when we live under a Totalitarian Regime.

    Search the net for echelon or NSA but you will find documentaries shown on TV from time to time also.

    http://www.iahf.com/nsa/20010214.html

    The NSA operate in the North of England in Yorkshire - they spy on all communications Globally (including every citizen)! They also use this same technology (which is around 35 years ahead of our advances we have publically available) to spy on corporations for US corporate/economic gain.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This Government will just take it from your income tax if they need any more extra tax money to fund ID cards Peter H.

    They are using the 2012 Olympics to leech more taxpayers money I take it!

    Much of your TAX money funds things you never use and many things you do not want or need yet you have no choise or say but are forced to fund such things, many are of an unethical nature.

    They do with most things - you'll just have to slave away more and ensure there is at least two people working to bring in your bread.

    We are made to work so hard for the essentials in life when nature provides all resources for free. Even then we mess up.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Having returned from America after 30 years where I.D. is compulsory there is a very good reason not to have it. On the part of the American police who can ask you to produce I.D. at anytime, anywhere, even on your doorstep, it produces the attitude that you are guilty until proven innocent. I.D. quite simply destroys the psychological attitude of freedom on the part of individuals, then real freedom ends up being undermined very quickly because everyone becomes used to being compliant to ‘authority’, to refuse to produce I.D. in the U.S. invites arrest. The practical result is it was easy for Bush to destroy the Bill of Rights, the guarantee of every Americans freedom, it has been practically torn up and thrown out of the window with barely a whimper of protest.

    On the part of politicians I.D. has nothing to do with public safety, it has everything to do with consolidating power over the people, in turning on its head the principal that government rules with the consent of the people, so that in order to provide a more perfect nation we will all be proper little sheep to tyrants in Westminster or Washington.
    richard Pitchers, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Gosh, we are really crawling to the finish line. Contact family and friends everyone. With one final BIG push we could get to 10,000 by Friday evening :)

    GO FOR IT!
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • How is this supposed to work? Am I going to be asked to report to my local police station for fingerprinting? If I don't will I be arrested? I already have a job so I don't need to show ID for that, I already have a bank account, and is the hospital really going to refuse to treat me without ID?

    The whole thing stinks.
    m, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hmmm.. food for thought.

    If Biometric ID's are the way forward, how do we prove who we are when we are forced to supply our data?

    Do we have to take two forms of ID, like driving license or utility bill with us?

    :)
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Blair has made a few lip-quivering passionate speeches since the London suicide bombing claiming that he will defend "our values and way of life" against anything that terrorists can hand out. Yet this same Bliar and his best mate George Bush, while safely out of the way in Gleneagles a few days ago, have allocated $3 billion to 'help' Palestine. How very interesting that the Hezbollah who initiated suicide bombing in Lebanon in 1982 are most active where? - in Palestine and have carried out over 200 suicide bombings on Israeli citizens and soldiers killing hundreds of them.

    What conclusions can we draw from this?
    Why, that Bliar is at best a liar and a hypocrite and at worst a psychopathic mass murdering liar and a hypocrite.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In reply to Signe

    The reason that the US and UK and now in the sights of terrorists (also remember that one man's terrorist is a another man's freedom fighter) is that as countries we are too busy trying to cure the symptoms of terrorism rather than tackle the root cause.

    In some instances I believe we are the root cause due to our greed for oil and our quest to indoctrinate the world with out western values and western ways.

    The rest of the world doesnt want to be British or American so we should just butt out. If his Tonyness had put a resistance to George Bush instead of sucking up to him then may the events that took place in London may not have happened.

    This may seem a little off topic but the threat of terrorist actions give the government another feeble excuse for the implementation of ID cards
  • Charles Clarke specifically said that ID cards would not have been any use in the case of the London bombings - or at least that they could not have prevented them.

    I still do not understand why members of the government think ID cards are a good idea, but constantly talking about how stupid they are and how they are all "scum" makes you sound like extremists. MPs are generally very hard working and tend to be at least reasonably intelligent. The complexity involved in having any real influence in policy creation requires that most people who make the decisions are pretty smart. You may disagree with what they have to say, they may even be highly misinformed, on occaion, but they're not stupid. No matter how much you dislike Tony Blair, he's no fool. I'm inclined to think that his motives are honourable, too, even if he makes the wrong decisions.

    The worst thing for any cause is when extremists take over and cloud the issue(s) at stake. Don't let that be you.
    Gavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Gavin, you've hit the nail on the head there about politicians being generally quite smart. But they can be misinformed and make snap decisions or become entrenched in a position without fully understanding the issue.

    Education is key so that politicians are not guided by rhetoric but by understanding the enormous risks, limitations and dangers of the proposed scheme. They also need to understand that the technology proposed is fallable and not ready for use as needed.

    Perhaps an FAQ should be distributed to every MP explaining the key failure points of an ID system as defined currently.
    Robert McGregor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So are the terrorists who bombed in London on July 7th "freedom fighters" then Gavin?
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The above question should have been addressed to Duane.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If the campaign against ID cards is to succeed, then pointing out the financial burden it will create, both to us as individuals and to our economy, might be the best way get the message across. We all know people who cannot get the health care they need, who are on waiting lists, have a long term health problem which is given the minimum treatment available, dangerous potholes in the roads which are simply left unrepaired, underfunded libraries, schools without adequate numbers of teachers or books and a laughable public transport system. So why is the government prepared to spend so much (of our money) on the completely unnecessary introduction of ID cards? They say that it will make our lives safer but most people would agree that attention to the problems I have already listed would go a long way to doing just that.
    julie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • When they say that ID cards will make our life safer there's only one question that needs asking - HOW?
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Signe,

    I'm sure in the of the individuals who instigated last weeks acts of attrition felt perfectly vindicated in their actions but what was their reason for murdering innocent people?

    Every story has two sides. I am not taking any side here side here I am just saying look at the whole picture before you pass judgement, this goes for everything you do in life. Do not be blinded by fear, hate or anger. What we must never forget is violence solves absolutely nothing, violence only causes more violence.

    What we have to ask ourselves is why people commit these acts? Governments should look at the root cause rather than trying to cure symptoms. Introducing draconian restrictions on people who just want to lead peacefull private lives or raging war against those who seek to hurt us solves nothing.

    What we should be doing is removing our need for oil (which seems to be the root cause of a lot of the recent problems in the middle east) by looking at renewable energy sources. I'm sure £18bn spent on a project like that would be far more productive than introducing ID cards.

    Duane
  • Re: the London suicide bombings. Associate Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago, in his book "Dying to Win", has collected the first complete database of every suicide-terrorist attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. This was to find out why people feel this is the way to get their message accross.

    Very interesting reading too. Find details of it here http://www.informationclearinghouse.info...

    ID cards will not stop attacks such as London's. But policy changes may.
    janie p, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    I entirely agree of course that the only way to stop terrorism is to tackle its causes, rather than merely its symptoms, and that the best way to do this is to put an end to the economic and cultural imperialism which is putting other cultures at risk of losing their own identities.

    However, one point I must disagree with...you say that "*we* are the root cause due to *our* greed for oil and *our* quest to indoctrinate the world...The rest of the world doesnt want to be British or American so *we* should just butt out" (my emphases). Why "we"? *I'm* not personally guilty of any of these things, and I strongly doubt you are either. The mass protests e.g. over the invasion of Iraq demonstrate clearly enough, surely, that the actions of our government(s) are not representations of the will of the people.

    Among the many things I detest about terrorism, this (oddly) is the one I find hardest to swallow: it's just so...unfair. The people killed and injured are (for the most part) civilians who have no control whatsoever over the actions and policies of their government to which the terrorists are objecting - indeed, as the Iraq demonstrations show, in many cases they strongly oppose those policies, and thus do actually *agree* with the terrorists' point of view (although of course not with their methods of expressing it!). If terrorists were to target the government ministers responsible for the policies of which they disapprove, of course it would still be hideously unjustified, but at least it would make *sense* from their point of view. Targetting civilians with no control over the situation, who are themselves often victims of their own governments in many respects, is like having an argument with someone, and making your point by kicking their dog.

    So please don't say that "we" are responsible for the root causes of terrorism - we're not. The government is, and it is often *not* representative of our views or desires. Doubtless this fact won't stop them from introducing ID cards for our "protection" though, while they continue to go around the world blindly making enemies for us.

    Apologies if this is too far off-topic!
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So why do so many apparently rational politicians support the National Register/ID card? They're not all part of some sinister police state conspiracy, surely? Two reasons.

    One, their civil servants are telling them it's a good idea (because it will involve spending billions on, er, the Civil Service).

    Two, they want to be seen to be doing something about terrorism, illegal immigration, benefit fraud and identity theft. The ID card won't actually help these, but most people seem to think it will, which is good enough for re-election purposes.

    If we can persuade enough of the electorate that the card is a bad idea, the politicians will mysteriously change their minds on the issue. They're not evil, just corrupt. ;-)
    Steven Evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic Shakeshaft,

    I should have clarified the "we" I was actually meaning the big "WE" as in the UK and US governments.

    Duane
  • Not necessarily corrupt. Just ordinary people, like us, in an 'extraordinary' job trying to make sense of it, survive, do their best, look after number one,... - all those things we all do (good and bad). Some of them are more vulnerable to 'corruption' than others, and I suppose too many put service to party ahead of service to people.

    It's easy to be cynical, but I think 'we' isn't necessarily so innappropriate because 'we' are all part of this society/culture and 'we' all have a responsiblity in making our society/culture what it is. Lumping all the blame on the politicians in the end is just scapegoating - not to say they don't need a good kicking every so often to remind them of their place! ;-)
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards are an obvious step for the government, in some ways. Giving everyone a "number" makes a lot of things easier. If the system works properly, quite a number of everyday operations can be completed more easily. It's for convenience - at both ends. Companies go to great lengths to give customers a unique ID - check your electricity bill - which then makes communication easier because you can be identified with certainty. This is very useful. Yes, you could argue it has an impact on your privacy, but tough luck - if you want to buy electricity they have to know who you are and where you live anyway. Unique IDs reduce the chance of an error occuring. The government want that same convenience.

    However, trying to make a "foolproof" system using biometrics and then claiming it will do anything to combat crime is ridiculous. There are so many loopholes that it will never work - unless we become a police state and people are heavily punished for not carrying their card. There always has to be a way of getting another card if yours is lost or stolen. And there has to be a way to verify and transfer the data from the card to the huge database and back. Therefore there will always be a way in, a backdoor.

    This system will certainly cost an absolutely massive amount of money. The government is great at screwing up IT projects and this would be the largest and most complex yet. "ID theft" will take on new and complex forms and the ID card system will have to cope by being flexible - therefore making it useful for any kind of legal enforcement.

    We may as well just have "non-driving" licenses like they do in some places with a name, address and photo. It would cost peanuts and work just as well for people who play along. Criminals will find a way around anything more expensive, anyway.
    Gavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Duane: You say governments should look at why terrorists do the things they do. Have you never heard of evil? And - heaven forbid - evil people? Some people don't need any 'reason' to do what they do. Were our 'British bombers' (we've been directed not to call them terrorists)justified in doing what they did for reasons of deprivation, poverty, loss of territories, etcetera etcetera? I think not. Plenty of people are poorer, more 'deprived', (and all the other justifications that the meddlers and do-gooders can think up to justify outrageous and unnacceptable behaviour) and they don't go about blowing people up, presumably because they are not evil. Let's face the eternally known fact, if there's good there's also evil.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oh dear, here comes the Bush rhetoric. This is not about "good" and "evil". The fact that people in this country feel some connection with people in other places is an indication of their humanity. They way they react to this concern may be another thing, but just because you're cosy and comfortable at home does not mean you don't feel the need to fight.

    Our soldiers go to other countries and kill people even though they could stay at home. Are they evil?

    If we go around looking for pockets of "evil" that cause all these problems, we may as well start peering under our beds for monsters while we're at it. Let's not be so simplistic. "Evil people" - dear me. Perhaps we should go burn some witches, eh?
    Gavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Judith,

    I think that saying people commit acts of attrition just because they are pure evil is a little simplistic. To blow yourself just out of badness would be an act of insanity. The people who murdered last week had motive. They had a belief in what they were doing was for a cause. I'm in no way condoning what they did as I do not support acts of violence all I am saying is don't be lead down a road where everything is black and white/good or evil, the world and the people in it dont follow those rules.

    To Gavin,

    There is a huge difference between the unique client number my electricity company gives me and an ID card. The customer number just identifies me as a paying customer it doesnt carry information about my religion, blood type, sexual orientation etc and can be used for no more than looking up my electricity usage and whether I've paid or not.

    An ID card and the database (this is where the real problem lies) that backs it up could be used and therefore abused due to the amount of information that will be held against an individual's record, with or without that individual's consent.

    If you should ask to see your record you'll only get to see the parts that the government wants you to see. Any other information would be withheld for reasons of national security.
  • I agree with Gavin's comments about 'good' and 'evil'. Externalising these two and then making judgements about who is 'evil' and who is 'good' leads to witch trials, gas chambers, and bombs on tube trains. But to then use that as a justification for saying concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are irrelevant or even non-existant would seem to be unecessary, even downright foolish.

    We all (almost all) have the capacity to make choices about how we behave and why we do what we do. To that extent 'good' and 'evil' exists within each one of us, laying on others is simply a way of denying our own guilt/complicity/potential to be just like 'them'. Hopefully, and mostly, we choose for 'good', but clearly not always - sometimes we may not even have the moral tools to be able to differentiate between 'good' and 'evil'. Sometimes our moral compass has been so abused we choose evil while being able to justify our choice as good (though I would guess, deep down, even then we know the truth - possibly excepting the results of severe mental illness).

    This relates directly to our politicians pursuing illusory security through means which could easily end up perpetrating a greater evil on a greater number of people than the evil they are trying to avoid.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Alisdair: I take your point that we are all part of our society and thus share responsibility for it. However (to take the most extreme case) if I vote against a certain political party, and then join protest marches against its policies, how can it be argued that I have any responsibility for its actions? Have I not in such a case discharged my duty as far as possible, by demonstrating in every conceivable (peaceful) way that I condemn those policies and that they do not represent my views?

    Judith Chisholm: I don't think anyone sane can possibly deny that terrorism is horrible and can never be justified...but if you think of those who perpetrate it as "evil", and stop there without thinking any further, you can't hope to understand the situation, and thus can't hope to change it. Unless you're religious, you have to realise (imho) that there is no such *thing* as "evil" - the world just isn't that black and white.

    Besides which, even if that were not true and we could all agree on a universal standard of "evil", the mere fact of being evil can't provide a motivation for action. It can allow people to consider *methods* which sane people wouldn't contemplate, but the actual motivating factor must come from something else. Many terrorists kill themselves - deliberately - while carrying out their crime. If they are doing it purely because they're "evil" and enjoy causing suffering, what on earth would be in it for them, if they don't live to see the consequences? It just doesn't make sense. The only way we can hope to stop terrorism from happening is by understanding the factors which drive people to it, and addressing them.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • One workable definition of 'evil' is simply this: that which denies the truth. It could be extended to say: that which denies the truth and love.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sadly I am unsubscribing to this topic, due to the vast number of off-topic, or indirect & loosly related correspondence.

    Can we not restrict comments on this thread to those directly related to how we can stop the introduction of these cards. Conspiracy theories and political theory would be better posted elsewhere (imho).

    Why should these cards not be introduced?

    The government does not know how to implement such a huge IT project,
    what it will cost, the timescale involved. It will be a costly disaster.

    It is impossible to guarantee security of the data.

    The objectives of the implementation are unclear, unexplained and confused.

    The moral issues surrounding the whole concept, are highly questionable at the least.

    Those are the four key reasons to stop this project.

    M.
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Alisdair,

    And how do you define "the truth"?
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Duane,

    Yes, I realise all that stuff. But it is important to realise where they're coming from and not just call them "scum" and talk about how they hate us all. I think the motivation for ID cards is honourable, but there are significant issues associated with them that are being brushed under the carpet. The potential problems are not outweighed by the potential benefit. The comparison an electricity company is useful because the basic process involved is the same.

    Alisdair,

    The concept of "evil" is entirely subjective. Certainly there are some things that are more or less universally considered evil, but such things very frequently still occur because of some particular justification. The word "evil" in itself is of little use when actually discussing problems and trying to find solutions. I don't think the people involved in anything that has been discussed here have turned to "evil". They may consider their acts "evil", but they most likely believe that they are acting as a force for "good".

    This is not Star Wars. The lines are not so clearly defined. We're talking about real people and real politics, not philosophical or religious absolutes.

    Anyway, none of this really has much to do with ID cards :-)
    Gavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm inclined to agree with Mark, here.

    ID cards are a bad idea because the UK government will screw the whole thing up. At a basic level, surely that's enough to dislike the idea?

    Luckily, the other parties and a fair chunk of Labour are pretty much in agreement that that is the case.
    Gavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Mark is right, we're going unhelpfully off-topic here, and should probably stop. Apologies for my contributions in that direction!
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • '...none of this really has much to do with ID cards' - I know what you mean; and I'm sorry Mark has decided to unsubscribe, though I sympathise with him to a large degree!

    However, just to respond, it isn't irrelevant to ask to what extent ID card/NIR will represent 'the truth' - in this case about me!? The Govt. seems to be relying on them being the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That's the problem, isn't it? They are trying to define us by a piece of plastic and a binary string on some server. That seems very much like 'evil' to me, i.e. a denial of the truth (and of love) about what it means to be a human being.

    Enough, I agree, we should attempt to more or less keep on topic! ;-)
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I know some of you know that I recently purchased the domain www.1984brigade.com (as a site to enlighten people to what is really happening in the world with regards to governmental control) and busy trying to get the thing up and running.

    I had a thought last night (yes just the one, I don't want to over do it), I have some software that allows me to audio stream through the web site and was thinking along the lines of a pirate internet radio station. "Radio NOID" or something like that where we could broadcast our resitance message to the world.

    What I am looking for is anyone who wants to get involed as a DJ, producer etc. The other thing I'm looking for is access to unsigned bands who are opposed to ID who have original music that we could play royalty free (full credits of course).

    Nobody would want to listen to us protestors waffle on for hours on end about how bad it would be to loose your freedom and become a number, but if we could get a little entertainment on there maybe we could get some of the younger members of society involved in our campaign?

    Sane or stupid idea (get your flame throwers heated up, I can take it)?

    Duane
  • It seems to me that the whole idea of ID card stopping terrorists is completely absurd, after all the UK issues 25 million visitors visas per year! The only possible reason I can think of for introducing ID cards is to try and stop benefit fraud, which is estimated to be around £2bn per year, now it doesn't take a genius to work out that with the estimated cost of the ID card scheme, currently estimated around £18bn, that it seems a rather expensive solution. To me it's obvious; a photo ID card for Social services (or use passport or photo drivers licence, if possessed), this would cost a fraction of the amount and would in no way be compulsory. Why don't the politicians simply call a spade a spade, it seems to me they are too scared to segregate the population by benefit and fear the backlash so they make up some cock n bull about terrorism, ID Theft! and the rest of it to try and force it on the whole population into accepting something we don't need. I have written to my MP and Tony to state my defiance in registering for the ID card. If 10000 refuse what the hell can they do!
    Grant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Home Office recently released an information video about the supposed benefits of ID cards, which didn't address any of the shortcomings. I remixed the video with the help of one of my friends, resulting in this new version of the video, which is far from complimentary about the scheme:

    http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~jdw500/iden...

    It may be helpful in getting people to think about the ID cards scheme - particularly people who aren't interested in doing research into the Home Office plans - since I think it sets out the key objections in an accessible way. Please pass the link on to your friends if you like it!
    Jack Whitham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Remember the NO2ID site contains a discussion forum where everyone can jaw to their heart's content.

    http://www.no2id.net/forum/index.php

    And incidentally I third (or fourth?) the blunt declaration espoused by several people here that the government can "shove ID cards up its arse".

    Anyone know where I can get that on a bumper sticker?
    Serena Jones, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't think I've had a satisfactory answer yet to the problem of their forcing ID cards on us by default via the issue of new passports. Blunkett's lie when the passport issue was first discussed was that the ICAO required biometrics and fingerprints and therefore the extra bit - the ID card bit - would be a small hurdle. However the ICAO does not require all this but only a facial biometric on the passport, in other words, a digital passport photo. The EU intends to use fingerprints in addition to a digitalised mug-shot but because of the Schengen opt-out the UK isn't required to follow suit. So no-one is forcing us to have fingerprints and extra biometrics on passports and the government is simply relying on people's ignorance of this fact to insinuate the package they want on to us. Additionally, Parliament has not yet approved any ID scheme that the fingerprints to be collected would be used for. As the deadline for obtaining a passport without its spurious ID accompaniments tacked on, is October this year, how do people avoid getting sucked in, and isn't this all the government needs to do to get its way? - refuse to comply and you don't get a passport!
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Grant -

    Only about 2% of benefit fraud is identity fraud, costing around £50m/year. The other 98% stems from fraudsters lying about their circumstances, not about who they are. This makes your argument even more relevant - the £6b cost of the ID card scheme would prevent at most £50m/year of benefit fraud.

    For much more on this, and other reasons why ID cards make no sense, see this paper:

    http://www.bowgroup.org/pub/IDCards.pdf

    While this was written by a politician (and a Conservative one at that!), it's very-researched and surprisingly non-political. Do read it, even if you would never dream of voting Conservative. At least some of the money we pay politicians is being spent on something useful!
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks Jack, great effort. One or two bits of commentary are perhaps a bit gratuitously sarcastic (though hard not to be in the circumstances). Keep up the good work.
    Alisdair, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Grant, about that £2bn a year benefit fraud figure. Only about £2 million of that is due to people claiming to be someone they're not. The rest is due to people lying about their circumstances (employment status, disability, etc.).

    Since only 0.1% of benefit fraud is related to false ID the ID card isn't going to make any significant difference there, even if it did make it impossible to pretend to be someone else.
    Steven Evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oops! Andrew Watson has the right figure, and references to back him up. My £2m seems to be my mis-memory of the 2% figure. Sorry.
    Steven Evans, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Try this for simplicity:

    Terrorists are like bees. They're little insects that mostly get on with their own busy little lives - when left alone, that is. They have stings in their tails (and bees die when they use them, much like suicide bombers). They often only sting when agitated or threatened, and are reasonably docile at other times.

    Anyone who has ever worked with bees will agree that one of the best ways to avoid getting stung is not to go around poking their nests, or invading their territory. Wearing protective clothing (ID cards, restricted civil rights) is a must if you insist on doing this, as you can bet that the bees will try to defend themselves.

    To avoid buying expensive protective clothing (or "fixes" for terrorism), just mind your own business. Keep out of their way, and don't interfere in their business. It's cheap! It's easy! Look at New Zealand, for example: Nobody's attacking them, because nobody cares about New Zealand. They aren't a target, because they don't make themselves into one.

    Sometimes, discretion is the better part of valour.
    Nobody important, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am uncomfortable with the idea that the reasons to oppose this are in the domain of, the government is not technologically savvy enough to implement it, or that it costs too much. This implies that if, at some later date, they developed the skills to make a good job of it, at a relatively low cost, then it suddenly becomes ok.

    IMO the reason not to go ahead with this is that no authority can be trusted with such data and stay trustworthy for all time. IMO no authority has any right to be demanding and holding this level and type of information on the individual citizen. The government should have to justify itself to the populous, the individual citizen should not have to justify themselves to the government. That's just wrong 'in my book', and I suspect, 'in the book' of many others too.

    All else is just supportive, and in the longer term, dangerous to push as a prime reason.
    Gary, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jack Whitham

    I loved the video, very funny, i hope loads of people get to see it.
    Great job
    grant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re: Passports. As it is obvious that the government will introduce the ID card measure stealthily, bit by bit, I am disappointed that no-one responded to the following comment I put on the site earlier. So, if you don't mind, I'll repeat it in the hope someone has something to say on this point as it seems to be of fundamental importance:-

    I don't think I've had a satisfactory answer yet to the problem of their forcing ID cards on us by default via the issue of new passports. Blunkett's lie when the passport issue was first discussed was that the ICAO required biometrics and fingerprints and therefore the extra bit - the ID card bit - would be a small hurdle.

    However the ICAO does not require all this but only a facial biometric on the passport, in other words, a digital passport photo. The EU intends to use fingerprints in addition to a digitalised mug-shot but because of the Schengen opt-out the UK isn't required to follow suit. So no-one is forcing us to have fingerprints and extra biometrics on passports and the government is simply relying on people's ignorance of this fact to insinuate the package they want on to us.

    Additionally, Parliament has not yet approved any ID scheme that the fingerprints to be collected would be used for. As the deadline for obtaining a passport without its spurious ID accompaniments tacked on, is October this year, how do people avoid getting sucked in, and isn't this all the government needs to do to get its way? - refuse to comply and you don't get a passport!
    Judith Chisholm at 15:05 today. Abusive? Report
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith,

    I can't answer your question myself, but perhaps someone in the no2id forums can help. Try asking at http://www.no2id.net/forum/index.php
    Jack Whitham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith,

    The problem you pose is indeed of fundamental importance.

    Under the Government's proposed legislation, ID cards will be compulsory for some people (those who wish to apply for a passport) and voluntary for the rest of us (those who don't want a passport).

    It could be argued that this law will discriminate unfairly between the two classes of citizens (those who want passports and those who do not) and the issue may have to be resolved in the courts under Human Rights legislation.
    David C. Hayes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's also discriminates against people based on age, that is people under 16 and people over a certain age.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa...

    22 Subsection (2) sets out the individuals who are entitled to be entered on the Register. These include individuals who have attained the age of 16 and are residing in the UK.

    46 Subsection (1) …….. It may be, for instance, that people over a certain age may initially or permanently be excluded from the requirement to register….
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jack Whitman,

    Is it ok for us to post the url for your ID card parody on our website? We will credit you, obviously. Its a great visual aid to explain to people what the issues surrounding ID cards is. Most of the traffic is alredy on our wavelength, but we do get the odd New Labour politician calling us "scum" for ideas that have been expressed on this comments forum. Like that'll stop us...

    Freedom of speech is a great thing, as long as you are on message, it seems.
    jane, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jane:

    Please go ahead and post it! I would really like to see it spread as far and wide as possible, if there is any chance of it getting the message across.
    Jack Whitham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I learned from someone writing here that the latest date to apply for a passport renewal (before they begin issuing their 'package' (with ID attachments) was October this year. Other info. however, states that the relevant date is October 2006/7. Which is correct? Also, apparently, the 3rd reading of the ID bill has been delayed until September - instead of being rushed through on July 19th. That is good news. But the passport-linked-ID-NIR really bothers me as I can't see a way out of them forcing it on us insidiously in this way.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As far as I'm aware, the October 2005 deadline refers to needing a digital photo on your passport to enter the US. Although older passports without them will still be allowed, it just means that new ones will need them. I have a 10 year passport that has another 5 or 6 years on it and that should be ok, it only means that newly issued passports need to conform to US requirements otherwise you will need to get a visa. The US also has the October 2006 deadline for newly issued foreign passports to contain biometric data, or again you need to obtain a visa.

    Anyone else know if that's right?! (And I'm not intending to start an arguement on whether this is a good/moral idea or a US led conspiracy - I'd just like to be aware of the facts!)
    Me, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's going to cost too much, & never stop terrorists. Spend the money on more & better CCTV cameras
  • I have a passport that expires in Aug 2007 does anyone know if can apply for a new one in October 2005 or is there too much time left on it?

    Also I read in the Observer that there was a plan for a large number of people to request a renewed passport at the same time to try and cause the system to grind to a halt. Anyone know any more about this.
    Frazer Kearney, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Frazer, you can apply for a new passport at any time, with no reason required. The downside is that they'll only "credit" you up to nine months for the unused time on your old passport. So if you applied for a new one (say) next month you'd waste 15 months that you'd paid for on your old one (two years left to run less 9 months credit).

    I've heard about this "everybody apply for a new passport at once" thing as well - I'd be up for that if anyone could get some details (I'm in the happy situtaion of having a passport that expires next February, so I wouldn't even lose out by doing that).
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We already have more CCTV cameras than the USA and Russia put together - pleading for them to place more is not much better than surrendering your freedom.

    CCTV cameras did not stop this London terror attack because it is state sponsored terrorism. ID cards will never stop or prevent terrorism.

    We have to fight the CAUSE NOT THE SYPTOMS!

    We have to get the political elite out and corporate government out - to localise powers and stop centralising them and handing our lives over to sick institutions.

    ID cards will never have any positive outcome - anyone wit sense who thinks freely for themselves can realise this with ease, you need to start thinking for yourself people - come to your own opinions not the ones fed into the corporate controlled media or the elite Regime that rules you.

    We will not allow our Freedom, Privacy, Civil Liberties and Human Rights to be destroyed.

    You have Free Will - never forget it, the people who allowed the Nazis to rule had Free Will - oh and it was the Nazis who forced Jews to be tagged with ID cards - remember? But then you fools don't realise who even funded them - UK and US government and stock markets as well as corporations that still operate today and do sick evil things - leading to the destruction of life.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • All i can say is i don't trust any one with my personal data. UK government has a bad reputation in handling electronic data. May it be child benefits or ID Cards.
    Even though they say that they wont share the data with other countries, I just don't trust them on this. If US ever blows a doggy whistle & ask for the data then their buddies here in UK will be more then happy to sell us out
    Irfan Faruki, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's great to see so that the target has almost been reached already. Well done everyone who has signed, and yes, I signed a week or so ago.
  • FYI: Yes, the proposed ID card bill does appear to fall foul of a great deal of legislation, both UK legislation and the European Convention on Human Rights. I'd recommend you to read the LSE report - Chapter 12 (The Legal Environment) gives a lot of detail on exactly which of its own laws the Government is proposing to break.

    Nobody Important: Your analogy between ID cards against terrorists and beekeeper's clothing against bees is flawed. The Head Beekeeper (the UK Government) has already stated that the protection against terrorists given by ID cards is roughly equivalent to the protection against bees given by a tasteful Burberry-patterned thong.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Blair doesn't bother to break laws he just does away with them altogether if they don't suit him. Didn't I read somewhere this evening that he's applying to opt out of the European Convention on Human Rights? Yes, I read it on line (I read so much I forget where). This is in order that he can do what he will without recourse with "bombers" (mustn't use the word "terrorist" it might offend someone). It also means that one of our resources to appeal to when 'they' are just about to put the manacles on us for not accepting their ID lies, will not be there.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To be fair, Judith, he's been banging on about this for years (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2... from two years ago, for instance). It's his usual "look as if I'm a dynamic leader" stance. He says he'll opt out of the ECHR at a drop of a hat, to stop terrists, dodgy immigrants picking up peoples' pensions, the dreaded single mothers, probably (with Harry Potter mania coming tomorrow), Wiccans...

    Unfortunately for Bliar the facts never seem to bear him out, and it's becoming abundantly more clear even to the knuckle-dragging sections of society that his simplistic solutions are just so much rhetoric. If a substantial proportion of people who are manifestly not ranting morons turn round and say "no" to the ID card nonsense this may give him pause.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i wonder if there is an analogy here that could prove useful. smoke poured onto bees makes them think "eek! forest fire! let's go eat honey and escape with our lives so we can start a new hive!" and this keeps them suitably occupied.

    oh - wait, no: what i believed would be a possible opportunity to state a positive analogy is over-ruled by the opportunity to point out a negative one.

    goebbels stated that the best way for a government to get its own way is to point out that "they (the Bad People we want to eradicate) can Get You In Your Own Home".

    and this very same tactic is presently being utilised both in america and here in the uk.

    trouble is, it's smoke they're blowing.

    *sigh*.

    if anyone else can think of a good way to make psychological "smoke" that would achieve the desired effects ("eek! fire! eat honey! run away!") the UK government so desperately wants - _without_ shoving biometric ID cards down our throats - please _please_ speak up.
  • The bomber from Leeds would have shown his ID when buying the train ticket, probably when boarding the train and wherever he alighted, shown it again when he got on the bus/tube..........and then blown himself up anyway. He was A SUICIDE BOMBER. Now that Britain has them, the rules have changed and I am against ID cards for the first time.
    Eric Scarboro.
    eric scarboro, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have just been reading about ICE - the campaign to have everyone put an emergency contact entry onto their mobile telephones.

    Well, I don't use one so it set me thinking about having a card with the details on it - perhaps in a standard format that emergency services can easily find.

    That led me to think - Is this The People's ID card?... useful information controlled by the individual - no super databases, no enforcement and all for the cost of a bit of advertising.
    Anthony, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Nobody important" - your bee keeping analogy is OK in some respects, but I strongly disagree with one part of it. You seem to imply that ID cards are an expensive fix for terrorism, wheras I would say that ID cards are not only expensive but will have absolutely zero effect on terrorism.

    In your analogy, ID cards would be more like wearing a lucky amulet to protect oneself from the bee stings - an utterly false security blanket that only a fool would believe could protect them.
  • We all know how corrupt and what a LIAR Blunkett was and we also know Tony B-liar is also - this is why he made sure David Blunkett got back in power, never trust this Totalitarian Regime.

    You need to look long term, the EU was planned a very long time ago by Big Banks and so was a American Union or Pan -American Union - this all leads to one thing - Global Governance - a One World Government - where all will be entered in to the Brave New World and probably most likely enslaved as a result.

    They will enslave you all if you accept ID cards it will be the beginning to a dark world for everyone on this planet.

    Yes I know the masses (controlled-manipulated sheep) think it is just a conspiracy theory even if it was a conspiracy fact then they have shown they arrogance and pure ignorance by not doing investigative research for themselves, but it is not a conspiracy (you have no idea of the meaning of th word do you?) it is however an Agenda that has been planned for many years and shared by many sick individuals.

    Pity none of you know real history and only believe the 'official story' like with everything else – even when the real factual based evidence is out there for us all to find.

    Do not let the Nazis win again! They never really went away you know! They still own/run the UN and hijacked the USA a long time ago, even the CIA were formed by Nazi war criminals in 1947, they do not try to hide these facts they have declassified all of it (and said as much 40 years after 20 year prior to officially declassifying important docs) they had recruited Nazi war criminals to work for the US Government and science community.

    You do have Free Will every human being does - every living thing does. Now why not try using it.

    Question the authoritarian state which is run by corporate cartels, think for yourself, do not ever accept pre-engineered opinions made by the corporate controlled media or state, always come to your own conclusions not influenced by anyone but yourself - at all times. I doubt many can really does this since the masses are a bunch of manipulated sheep that get fed a load of c.r.a.p.

    ID cards will never address any of our man made issues here, we must respect the nature of our own created problems, capitalism has never worked and never will, communism is now often admitted to be the greatest form of capitalism. But yet again the west funded all of that too, all Nazism and communism. All of it.

    We hold the real power - so wake up and use it or lose it for good! This time we are fighting Global Tyranny. Do not let these political elite scum take our freedom away, they hate us more than you will ever believe and do the most disloyal work. Yes all political parties are in fact the same - most always share the same ideals and policies. just look at their hypocrisy and lies to realise this, they rely on brainwashing us from a young age by indoctrinating our children and do a great job by large.

    http://management.silicon.com/government...

    ID cards can be stopped - in fact every unethical thing can be stopped if you believe it can be! And we still can make this world a beautiful place to live in before all of life is destroyed.

    Remember that your brain has been pre-wired and pre-conditioned to think a certain way about everything, you need to restructure your brain. What you believe is possible, not believing will shorten your horizons! You really want to be limited that much?

    Some politicians have already said as much (in Wales for one) and really they may as well be -
    http://www.seanbryson.com/blunkt.html

    We're already on our way to fighting these Global Tyrants - lets show them peacefully that we can stop what we want and make sure we keep our freedom in tact.

    We can never trust anyone with absolute power not even ourselves - why would one want that in the first place?! You'd have to have some obsessive illness like most in politics. Scientists have even proven that people who are successful at getting power either corporately or politically on a big scale then they do generally share similarities to psychopaths.


    If all of us go to jail then maybe this sick government will be happy to put several million more in jail to? Less for them to keep under control in the open I guess....

    Keep Faith in yourself and humanity despite our dark history. And remember to be happy.

    Always remember to have a good time resisting and to never commit an act of violence - never!
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Why is it that people who bang on with Nazi conspiracy theories invariably do so at enormous length?
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Voice - so everyone else is corrupt/has agendas/is lying/being manipulated - thank goodness we have the 'voice' of reason in you, with your concise and eloquent arguements showing how you, and only you, know the truth and the way forward (and such unilateral thinking is what you criticise so strongly in others when their opinions differ to yours.... interesting!).
    sigh, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • All opinions are interesting (though this is not the forum for most of them). What annoys me most are the solecisms. Correct spelling and grammar is essential in order to properly communicate. Not even bothering to check shows unjustified arrogance.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I never claimed to have absolute certainty about anything, nor did I claim I am the only one who has knowledge of any such truths.

    Many other things are in plain view yet have to be recognised by the majority of people...may be you can tell me why this is (of course you can't unless I was specific?)? I am open to everyones opinion and respect everyones choice of view - I change my opinions when presented with factual evidence and all sources are completely exhausted once I have assessed it in due time with necessary research.

    Hey you know that Princess Diana's death was a so called "conspiracy theory" yet 87% or more of the public (depending on which polls we look at and at what time) think it was murder and even MI5 (agents) say as much. Please give up the sad conspiracy theory comments you were preconditioned to laugh at certain words and then completely dismiss all sides (apart from official claims) please don't make me laugh any more....it hurts. Go back and worship your precious government why don't you?!

    I can almost always guarantee people reaction since many are so predictable.

    Just so you don't go jumping to claims that I never made....I am not special in any way other than anyone else...just more individualistic in ways..that's all.

    I do not ever label people into groups (like the state) even though some of you may think this, but I do not bother what anyone thinks of me either.

    I do commend everyone who supports resisting ID cards and passports but do question many of their reasons for it.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This php software is buggy, it has posted an unedited version of my coment which it never sent a confirmation link to my email.
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Signe: "To properly communicate"? Hello pot, my name's kettle.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Signe: Oh, I missed "Correct spelling and grammar is essential". Surely "...are essential"? I really hate syntactical solecisms such as yours, but I'll put up with them in the name of fighting stupID cards.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Voice: in your case it was probably a buffer overflow. Complain to pledgebank, not on this forum.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No, sorry to disappoint you Tony Walton - correct spelling and grammar IS essential is correct. Spelling and grammar form one singular constituent. I really hate people who really hate.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I disagree with what you say, Signe ("grammar" and "spelling", being two nouns, require a plural; you would not say "cows and sheep is farm animals", surely? Perhaps you meant to use a single noun such as "correctness in grammar and spelling") however I would, of course, defend to the death your right to say it.

    Where is that last 22 people we need to complete this pledge, and what happens next, I wonder.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Walton: Go to 'Tools' on your computer, then click on 'Spelling & Grammar'. You will find that my sentence "Correct spelling and grammar is essential" - is correct. You can conflate 'spelling and grammar' in such a sentence as they are singular words, whereas you cannot, as you so humorously declare (and I am still laughing): "Cows and sheep is farm animals" simply because cows and sheep are plural words. But never mind, you live and learn.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Microsoft may be happy with "chocolate and beer is nice" but I. happily, use a Macintosh.

    You do indeed live and learn. Yet another good reason to stay away from the products of Redmond, WA.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony:

    Q: Who owns Apple (makers of the Macintosh)?

    A: Microsoft
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony:

    By the way.

    'Spelling' and 'grammar' are singular nouns, like 'mail' and 'post'. They refer to multiples, of course, but they have their own plurals, such as 'spellings' and 'posts'. I see no reason why one could not employ the plural 'grammars', for example in the context of multiple languages.

    Consequently, since they are singular, 'Spelling and grammar is correct' is grammatically correct. How many times have you said "The mail are late today", even though 'mail' refers to many posted letters?

    Of course it is also possible to say "Spelling and grammar are essentials", where the plurality is due to the combinational effect of grouping more than one word.

    I really like these lessons in English. It really invigorates this 'forum'.

    Howevva, I fink, wiv hall doo respec', that s'long as you get my meanin', then commoonicashun has took plaice ok, an' that's wot it's hall abhaat (or woz that the Hokey-Cokey?).

    Furthermore I still refuse to register for an ID Card.
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Please see this page:

    http://www.pledgebank.com/pretentiousness

    and sign up now!
    ches whistler, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Mi appologiz, Veronika it wont appen agin.

    And I still won't have one of the damn things either.
    Tony Walton, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Actually, Micro$oft doesn't 'own' Apple, thank God. It does have a handful of (non-voting) shares in Apple, but this hardly consitutes ownership. If Micro$oft really did 'own' Apple, it would have put a halt to the release of Tiger until it had finished the development of its much-delayed Windows replacement operating system, Longhorn.

    Any chance we could get back to talking about ID cards?
  • Tony, your apology is due to me!
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm just wondering, if the magic seven needed to sign the pledge are realised today, will there be anyone at HQ to raise the flag?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So firstly to stay on topic; ID cards are bad.
    Then secondly, I think that the correct grammar is "Correct spelling and grammar are essential". Perhaps "correct spelling and grammar" is essential would work?! Surely combining two single nouns with 'and' makes a plural which needs 'are' (e.g Signe and I is/are disagreeing about grammar?)
    So yes, I am one of those people that the new pledge is about.... it's a sad realisation..... I'm now going to go think about what I've done!
    sigh, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith:

    We will need a lot more than 10,000 signatures, so it is more important (IMHO) to wait until the pledge closes in October, before jumping for joy.

    It may be that 'deliberately false nams' have been planted on the list, to make us think we are stronger than we actually are. That is not an unknown tactic, bearing in mind the stakes are high for Blair & Co.

    Phrases such as 'proofs of pudding' and 'counting chickens' seem, to me, to be the order of the day.

    Furthermore, in case anyone here is unaware of it, we will have much bigger battles to fight in the near future - even if we win this one.

    Even if Blair is forced to give up, any replacement is likely to continue down the same path, however any successor would be forced to move into 'incremental', or 'piecemeal' mode. It will be far more difficult to keep a weather-eye on them in that mode.

    This is what will happen in the case of the EU Constitution after rejection by the French and the Dutch. The Constitution will be enforced piecemeal - a bit here ... a bit there. It takes longer, but the final result will be the same.

    These people do not give up. They have far too much to lose. We must be prepared to do likewise, because we have even more to lose (IMHO).

    If anyone disagrees, then feel free to criticse any of the stuff I've been posting at www.1984brigade.com (2 + 2 = 4).
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well done everyone! 10000 has finally been reached!
    Edwin Lyons, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Sorry to continue the off-topic English lessons, but...

    "Correct spelling and grammar is essential" is perfectly acceptable, as the two are being referred to almost separately - i.e. one could say "correct spelling is essential and correct grammar is essential".

    If they're are grouped together, the plural form ofthe verb is used, e.g "Spelling and grammar are essential elements of language".

    The same could potentially apply to the earlier example of 'chocolate and beer'. If they're together (though who would put chocolate in beer is a mystery) then it's not unlike saying "bacon and eggs is nice for breakfast". Although yes, the Microsoft spelling and grammar checker sucks ass.

    I only continue this for two reasons: Not to bother with correct spelling and grammar is horrendously lazy and the new Belgian ID cards have certain words deliberately mis-spelled, the theory being that it makes them harder to forge. You couldn't make it up...
  • Dear Christopher: thank you for supporting my use of English and for your final paragraph. I agree that not to use correct spelling and grammar (and as far as most people are concerned who write here, not even to bother to use the 'Preview' option before they post their comments) is "horrendously lazy". If carried to its conclusion we shall all finish up as we began, shrieking (well, that object is already almost universally achieved) making paw marks in the ground and uttering the occasional grunt.

    None of this detracts from my dedication to trying to prevent ID cards from happening but I fear that, as has already been expressed, what the government hopes to achieve with them will be effected one way or another, regardless.
    Signe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well done everbody, we reached 10,000 but we do need 100,000 at least. Politicians will pay attention to the general public in strict ratio of their numbers.

    Ten thousand people out of around 60 million or the 17.4 million who bothered to vote is not enough to make them fear for their jobs.
    Steven Walker, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes, I would certainly agree, 10,000 has always seemed to be a fairly easily achievable target given the scale of opposition to the project.
  • Now that we have the sufficient number of signatures, what do I do with my £10? The pledge says it will be held 'in trust' but which trust and how do I send it there?

    Or do I just need to put a £10 note in a glass box with "in case of ID card emergency smash glass with hammer" written on it?

    If a direct donation is possible, you may get more than the £10 from me and many others...
    Stephen Brooks, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 'scuse my grammar, i dont believe in it :)

    well done everyone! lets hope this is just the start, 25,000 by october?

    I've got my tenner in a jar on the sideboard...
    jim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Can we now please go for the next 10,000 signatures without bitching amongst ourselves about off topic semantics?

    I say this having spent a long, difficult afternoon discussing ID cards with my Dad yesterday. After a exhausting hours of relentless claim and counter-claim as to the efficacy and dangers of ID cards to a man who thought they may well be able to end world poverty -an exaggeration, but not by much- he finally agreed they were wrong and visited this site to sign up and pledge his tenner.

    Then he saw the last 25 comments on the page, told me he wanted nothing to do with this and was off. No signature and a man who is now left believing "the NO2ID cards crew are spelling cranks" his words. And he believes in the need for using English correctly.

    Do we really want to be actively scaring people away in this manner? By going off topic for so long that there is an entire page of comments irrelevant to the cause. How many other prospective pledgers have felt this way?

    Complain about this all want, but it is the truth, the whole truth.
    Janie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Couldn’t agree more, Janie. Anyone who doesn’t stay focused here on the central ID card issue risks weakening our support and playing directly into the hands of the government. So let’s sharpen up, and go for the next 10,000 signatures.
  • http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.ph...

    My religion says I can't give thumb prints unless I am a criminal and have to shut my eyes when looking into eye scanners. It also states I must not pay for rubbish that will do me no good what-so-ever.
  • Matt:

    My religion is very similar, except that it says I can only give thumb prints whilst wearing gloves ... so as to minimise the spread of infectious diseases.

    Holy Roller! Keep the faith, brother!
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think someone should point out that the deluge of off topic ‘dross’ is significantly harming this case, I have now had to unsubscribe, I just cannot face the 30 e-mails about who owns Apple (who really cares?), and the complex niceties of the amalgamation of multiple singular concepts into a singular subject within a sentence, (go read ‘eats, shoots and leaves’).

    After we've ignored the conspiracy theorists, only a tiny percentage of posts relate to ID cards and how we can stop them - I think you all need to re-focus, or you'll lose all the moderate support this case needs.

    Good luck.

    M.
    Mark, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Having circulated the link for this pledge once, I had intended to repeat that in the hope of reminding people and getting some more signatures. I decided not to do so - because of the off-topic, in some cases extreme, abusive, and even obscene comments on display. It does our common cause no good at all.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't suppose phil would start a pledge along the lines of "I promise to submit my passport renewal application on the week of X if 10,000 people do the same" ...?

    I think renewing the passports will be a really effective protest, but as people have mentioned before it relies on people all doing it at the same time.

    Might be better of course not to specify a date so as not to give the powers time to recruit more people...
  • This Government seems to have forgotten their job is to Govern not to RULE. I want my Government to empty the bins and keep the streets clear, not to tell me where I should and should not be.

    I.D cards are all about controlling honest citizens. Terrorists and criminals will get around the system, it is part of their job. A terrorist can afford the 150K it might take to get round the system. ID cards are all about the powers that be knowing where to find you if you've not paid a parking ticket, TV licenses or your council tax. When they have a electronic chip in your car as well as in your phone, they'll even know where you are every minute of the day.


    In my view:

    Terror:
    Spain had I.D cards but this did not stop the Madrid Bombers. Spending Billion of pounds on a UK I.D card system just so the government can claim that "they are doing something" is a fraud. Why not use the money for bomb sniffer dogs on the entry point to all underground stations?

    Once Terrorists have fake I.D cards, they can go and do anything they like. I think I.D cards will encourage lazy police enforcement. "BEEP" and your through the security check, rather than, "I wonder why he's got 30 pounds of Semtex strapped around his waist and headed for Central London!! - Oh well never mind, back to the crossword and my jam donut".

    I've heard many times that carrying your ID card will not be compulsory but you'll be given 24 hours to produce it …. I think your average terrorist will scarper before then, whilst you and me will have to be down the station 8am sharp with our papers to the ready.

    In George Orwell's 1984, Big Brother maintains power over it people by being at perpetual war with it neighbors. In this way Big Brother forces the population to sacrifice their civil liberties in order to protect the people from these outside powers. Will the "War on Terror" ever be won? Will this Government ask us to sacrifice further liberties for the sake of "security"? There is a balance between freedom and security, otherwise why not lock us all in our houses, then we'd all be totally safe from harms way.

    Fraud:
    I.D card and its associated database will be like honey to be a bear. Every organized criminal gang in the world will be desperately trying to hack their way into the database to get all this info in one fell swoop so they can empty your bank account amongst other things. "All your eggs in one basket" springs to mind. Hackers have never been kept out of any security system. Recently a bloke in the UK was arrested for breaking into the American's most Top Secret security systems. So forgive me for having some skepticism about this government ability to establish a successful and secure computer system with heir record on computer systems!!

    Once a person has stolen your ID you'll have a devil of a times trying to persuade anyone that in fact it was not you who took out that great big loan. Little Britain's "THE COMPUTER SAY'S NO!" character springs to mind here.

    A Step-relative of mine (an American) had her ID stolen in the US and she is still on many credit black list 15 years later. People look at the computer and just say no.

    Asylum:
    Labour have insisted that I.D cards would prevent bogus asylum seekers and illegal workers entering the country…. What!!!!!! Forgive me but I didn't think "illegals" queued up to get into the country in the first place.

    Passport:
    People say biometrics will be part of the passport, so you might as well get the I.D card at the same time. At the moment Passports are not compulsory (which ID cards will be in a few years - otherwise they are pointless). Also the argument that you'll need biometrics to get into USA is not quite true. You won't need biometrics to the level this Government want them to get into the USA. Furthermore biometric identifiers don't work 90% of the time.

    Privacy:
    Dirty trick's; the temptation for any Government to resists access to the candy store is just too much for them. I recall Pam Warren, a Paddington crash survivor who was giving the Government a hard time and had her private life looked into, her voting policy, and generally any dirt they could dig up so as to throw at her. With a handy database, all this could be that little bit easier, and they probably wouldn't have been caught doing it either.

    Also this Government has also been guilty of already looking at selling parts of the database off to interested parties. Now they have a cap on the price of ID cards it this more or less likely? E.g. "Thank you for that huge contribution to the Labor Party's re-electoral Fund" and "Oh yes, and by the way - we've decide to sell you all that data that you were interested in after all"

    I'm also worried about legitimate legal protest - the foundation of Democracy. E.g. "Please pass your ID cards through this turn style before you can enter the square to protest about University Tuition fees" - and by they way you'll be added to the list of trouble makers on the database while your at it.

    Cost:
    Who cares, people seem more worried about a few shillings, then being sold into slavery!! But for those that do care - The Governments record on installing new computer systems is not great - with nearly everyone having costs that spiral out of control (and then not even working) - BEWARE - I sense more steal(th) taxes on the horizon.

    Nazis
    Finally the Nazis. We cannot guarantee that each successive Government that succeeds this one will be totally benign. The Nazis came to power through a democratic process, before then hi-jacking democracy for their own ends.

    Democracy is a fragile system and anything which too greatly tips power towards the people that govern us is dangerous. Imagine what extra atrocities the Nazis could have inflicted on the world if they had ID cards with biometric identifiers "You card indicated that your Great, Great, Great Grandfather was a Jew - get into the truck.".

    In Short:
    ID cards do nothing they purport to do (in my view) whilst opening a Pandora's Box of other problems. One a Government has a power, they are very reluctant to let it go again. Like Pandora Box - Once out of the box, it is impossible to put it back in the box.

    I certainly won't be getting an ID card unless I'm arrested. Then "they" can take my finger prints - as by then I'll actually be a criminal !!

    Citizen 100010110101 (aka Mike)
    Citizen 100010110101 (aka Mike), 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I've been away for a few days and was really pleased to see that the pledge had "over subscribed". Well done Phil and the NO2ID team.

    I also see that there have been a few comments with regards to extreme views/conspiracy theories etc scaring off the moderates. With that in mind myself and Veronica are developing a little website where those of you who wish to air your "extreme" views and voice your concerns over the bigger picture are all very welcome.

    We've got a lot of plans of where we want to go so if you have any ideas and/or want to get involved then come on over to www.1984brigade.com.

    Leave the pledge page for it's intended purpose, refusing to accept ID cards.

    D.
  • I'm inclined to agree with Citizen 100010110101 (aka Mike) - ID cards are infringement upon our civil rights, and, more importantly (at least from a Governmental perspective), completely useless when it comes to addressing the issues that TB and the New Labour posse claim. (Note the use of the word 'claim' there - you might think that there are other reasons for instigating an ID card scheme, but I couldn't possibly comment!!)

    By the way, Bruce Schneier, a renowned expert on security issues, has a couple of interesting, clearly-written articles at http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0404... and http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0402...
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • http://www.wpcs.uk.com/ponies/passport.h...

    describes the (now mandatory) passport for animals in the U.K. - key objectives being to control disease" and "improve breeding".

    The same s/w house is involved in both the DEFRA database and the Home Office NIRS database.

    Lucky they tested the database on animals first.
    Dave H., 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think this pledge needs to be revised or at least we should consider trying to get a million signatures, 10,000 is too low I mean that's probably a tenth of the population of the town that I'm from, the government and the mainstream-media will probably not pay much attention to it, and will not totally derail this police statist scheme.
    Ibrahim Sadiq, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I agree completely with Ibrahim Sadiq, 10,000 is a commendable effort but it's not really enough. Hundreds of thousands marched on London to protest the Iraq invasion and the government just ignored them.

    We need to keep raising awareness wherever possible, a casual mention of the proposed 2 year jail sentence for not submitting to an iris scan usually does the trick...
  • To Ibrahim Sadiq,

    10000 is a relatively small number but image in the 20000+ wasted hours we're going to cause if we have to start our civil disobedience.

    In terms of project managemnt Phil has done a grand job pulling everyone together. The refuse "project" was a project managers dream in that it was SMART.

    Specific
    Measurable
    Attainable
    Realistic
    Time Bound.

    Specific in terms of what this pledge set out to do.

    Measurable in terms of the number of people theat were needed.

    Attainable in that over the time scale 10000 people should have been a target that could be reached.

    Realistic in that 1000000 people is an unrealistic target in the time scale available due to the apathy that the general population of this country seems to suffer from.

    Time bound the 9th of October was chosen so that information could be collated before the MPs return to the mad house.

    A pledge requiring 1000000 subcribers would be difficult to achieve in a time scale before MP's start deciding where they are going with ID cards and passing laws. Besides which the number of pledges would slow down over time and so impact on moral.

    10000 people with the right motivation can raise absolute chaos.

    NO to ID, NO to the database state.
  • To Chris Godfrey,

    Your lack of faith disturbs me ;o) It's all a matter of vision. Think of all the ways that 10000 people can clog up the system....

    Writing a letter saying you've been excused the need for an id card that'll waste a week while some government drone tries to valid your story. 10000 people do the same it chokes up the system then you write a letter telling them you cant make the appointment as you'll be on holiday and 10000 people do the same and so on.

    Then you eventually turn up at the yellow star issuing centre with the wrong documents and 10000 people do the same. What is this going to cost the government?

    Then we go and sit down at the end of Downing Street causing chaos on the streets of London and 10000 other people join us. What they going to do lock us all up?

    An idividual is relatively powerless 10000 of us can cause havoc without even trying.
  • Although the government did ignore the thousands who marched against the Iraq war there is no equivalence between those demonstrations and what the 10,000 people who've signed here could effect if they acted in concert. A demo is just that, a controlled lot of people making a lot of noise for a day and then -- 'off you go, back home, you've had your say, we'll do what we like anyway!'BUT, 10,000 people all in their different locations, not a mob, not directly controlled, not arrestable, but throwing a pre-arranged co-ordinated spanner in the works TOGETHER -that, as a number of people have already said, is a different story!
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Duane & Judith;

    Your optimism is inspiring! I didn't mean to pour water on the pledge, quite the opposite.

    Of course 10,200 people can throw a spanner in the works - that's a lot of spanners and I'm looking forward to joining in.

    All I meant was that having hit the 10k mark, we shouldn't become complacent. We need to make as many people aware as possible. And one way to do this is to catch their attention with the list of penalties that you'll incur if you don't show up to get your iris scanned + your prints taken...
  • Excellent. Now let's see the target nudged up to keep the momentum. But not out of reach, say, 20,000?
    The http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0404... link mentioned previously is well worth reading.
    John Washington, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I suppose we'd all better watch what we say from now on. I see Big Brother is trying to impose new laws on our freedom of speech.

    I suppose in our brave new world Herr Clarke would say that me calling for everyone to put superglue on their fingers before collecting their yellow star (ooops ID card) would be an act of terrorism.

    This government has gone too far. We need an open government, one that serves us not dictates to us.

    NO to ID, NO to the database state.
  • The 'mind-control' - via 'spin' - is very subtle.

    One of Blair's initial reactions to the London Bombings (before the Press announced their Guilty Verdict) was (quote) "one of surprise that the bombers were British".

    That is very subtle, because top of his agenda is ID Cards + add-ons, and he knows there is serious resistance to this. Many in the 'resistance' are most offended at being British ... while at the same time being 'thought guilty', and being told they therefore need an ID Card.

    That is the subtlety in Blair's remark.

    He is saying, in his insidious and odious way, "There! You see! We need ID Cards for British people ... because the 'bombers' were BRITISH. Even British people can become suicide bombers, as proved by this event".

    Is that not his underlying (or should I say just simply 'lying') message? Obviously any right-thinking person knows that this logic makes not one jot of sense were it to be scrutinised, but Blair operates under the general assumption that no-one (of any significance or consequence) ever bothers to scrutinise. And in that he is, of course, absolutely right because everyone of consequence immediately goes back 'on message'.

    (IMHO) We really need to 'wise-up' to this sort of spin.
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I would like to add to the Ibrahim Sadiq / Chris Godfrey strand. Isn't the racial mix of that sentence wonderful? (I'm assuming tht Chris Godfrey is White European and that Ibrahim Sadiq isnt. - apologies if I am wrong)

    Keep that laser away from my eyes!

    Iris scanning requires the use of a laser - ok so not the same strength of laser that nearly took down Sean Connery's particulars in that Bond Film, but a laser none the less. Another invasive procedure that not even convicted criminals are currently required to undergo! So why should I be required to do so to just to prove that I am a citizen?

    I think it is a perfectly valid argument aginst stupID cards to highlight what we as law abiding citizens will be subjected to, in order to get one.
    Joe Kavanagh, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I already have quite enough documentation concerning my identity to look after, thank-you... and having entertained various interesting experiences over time with mistaken ID due to "human error" in banking etc., I shudder to think of the consequences of said (inevitable) human error on a scale of this magnitude; any fule kno how easy it is for a determined criminal to get in and out of every security system these days... the wider the net, the bigger the holes, neh?
    Cuedda Proudfoot-Taylor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Joe:

    The laser in your eye is only safe provided that the machine in in proper adjustment.

    How long will it be before a technician, who wants get home early on a Friday afternnon, rushes the job, so that the next 'customer' stepping up is blinded by this appalling scheme?

    I think it is our right to demand that lasers are not used in our eyes, except under our express consent for medical purposes. Under the control of Eye Surgeons, or fully qualified medical personnel, who (presumably) know what they are doing.

    As someone said a while back: You couldn't make it up ...
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • So the people putting lasers in my eyes will not have backgrounds in eye treatment?!?! Few things about ID cards still surprise me and apart from huge other issues surrounding them, if that's true then I'm actually shocked! I have very bad eyesight already and no technician with ten minutes training is going near me!

    How can a concept with this many obvious practical flaws (let alone the objections in principle) have got this far?!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eighteen years ago Australia rejected ID cards. But now unfortunately the debate has been reopened, and people are talking about “Australia Card Mk 2”.

    Last night there was an interesting 50 min. debate on this topic on ABC Radio National’s ‘Australia Talks Back’, and you can listen to this online using Real Player or Windows Media Player. But don’t be put off by the first eight minutes, when the Queensland Premier Peter Beattie presents the pro-ID card case! For after that there is an informed, lively debate, leaving the distinct impression that the Australians are unlikely to take this thing lying down. The broadcast includes an impressive, valuable contribution from our own Guy Herbert, General Secretary of NO2ID.

    You can access the ‘National Identification Card’ debate at: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/austback/
  • Now that the target has been reached, naturally less people will sign up. The target needs to be removed, and needs to be focussed more about each individual having a value in it without the restriction of demand for a collective number of 10, 000 (which as Ibrahim said is not going to gain the mass media's attention).

    This is the biggest activism on the internet shown against id cards as far as i am aware, so let's push for higher heights despite time demands.


    Regards
    Adam, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ellen,

    The biometrics scanners are being installed in airports. To the best of my recollection (I haven't checked) but I remember reading a report that there is a preliminary installation in one of the UK airports. There are certainly installations at 4 US International airports.

    It would be hard to imagine a qualified medical practicioner standing by, anymore than there will be one standing by in the Passport Office, etc.

    These devices are intended to be operated by 'anyone and everyone trained to use it'. To use IT ... not trained 'medically'.

    That is what is so arrogantly and unbelievably ridiculous about the whole scheme.

    The proposed UK Scheme does not compare - in any way - with other ID Card schemes that have been previously implemented worldwide. They do not use biometrics, they are just small cards equivalent to our Driving Licence.

    And I refuse to partake in this under any circumstances.

    (Yes ... talk about the 'blind leading the (potentially) blinded')
    Veronica Chapman, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Iris scanners don't have to use lasers, and as far as I can find, don't.

    eg just three a twenty second google found for me:

    http://www.jaypeetex.com/products/Biomet...

    or

    http://www.netip.com/articles/keith/biom...

    or

    http://www.jfkiat.com/Iris%20Scan/Iris%2...



    and even if they did they'd be using a low power laser for illumination and not the high power ones used for medical procedures.

    If someone can come up with a reference of how scanners incorrectly used can damage retinas, please post it.
    Ric, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks Ric - I've had a play on google and learned probably more than I ever need to know about iris and retinal scans. I think confusion between the two may explain a lot!
    (Still doesn't mean I want an ID card like the one being proposed - I carried one as a temporary resident in Ecuador and didn't mind, all it was was a form of photo ID, not a link to a centralised database, which I think is the most concerning part of current plans)
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In answer to Veronica's comment about the 'insidious and odious spin' that Blair is a master of, and the implication that because the "bombers" (I call them terrorists and murderers) were "British" then, bingo! British people can be "bombers", therefore British people need ID cards: the murderers had ID cards (or the equivalent) on them when they blew themselves and others up. The possession of ID didn't stop them committing their heinous crimes. On the contrary, if we are to believe the authorities, they seemed to have taken great care that their identities should be known after the event. So how does possession of an ID card or being on the world's biggest database stop terrorism?

    Even if they had intended to not be one of the victims (and there is some debate that their bombs were primed to go off before they could escape) -- they would have escaped with their ID, and still have committed the crime.

    But to deal with facts: to my mind, the finding of the ID on their bodies deals a body blow to the whole idea of ID preventing terrorism.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ric:

    Iris Scans use ordinary photographic techniques (albeit infra-red), but have a very high failure rate: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/05/07/... ... which means that, statistically, 2.5 million out of the British population would go unrecognised.

    Retina Scans, on the other hand, are far more accurate: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-does-a-retin...

    Retinal Scanners would be needed to provide any biometric security at all. Retinal Scanners use lasers to see through to the retina. And they can give you watery eyes: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/08/...

    More spin, I'm afraid. For "Iris Scanners" (OK) read "Retinal Scanners" (NOT OK)
  • Veronica,

    Thanks for the links. I've seen the Register articles before.

    Yes these techniques are not accurate, including retinal - just one reason I'm dubious about the ID card scheme.

    The second link only refers to a "low intensity light source" for retinal scans, which could just be a light like your opthalmist uses, and even if it's a laser, it'd only need to be a low powered one.

    Your third link has the comment that a retinal scan uses lasers, but the link says no such thing, nor does the original BBC story - it just comments on what sort of laser would be fine, not that one is actually used.

    I provided three links that say: that Iris scanning just uses a video camera; the second that Retinal scanning does *not* use a laser; and the third used infra red LEDs, plus a load of health data. I found these rather easily, and I couldn't find any infomation on damage caused by retinal or iris scans.

    Further research shows that the Heathrow trial that has just started use Iris scanning using just a video camera.

    The original point made by Joe and yourself was that Iris scanning shone lasers in your eye and ill-trained technicians could do damage.


    All the links posted have convinced me that that is not the case, even if your hypothetical switch to retinal scans are used instead.


    There are plenty of well resarched good reasons to oppose ID cards and the NIR.
    Ric, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • These camera scanners uses an infrared light which is still radiation. Even radar (microwave technology) that is used to sense when someone enters near an automatic door you are being radiated and did you know that when these stores close they still beam out radar/microwave radiation 24/7?

    Ready for the 20,000 plus mark? Make it happen people.

    If you want to practice your natural given freedoms in the future you may have to do this by becoming an outlaw!

    http://www.out-law.com/page-4420
    Voice, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm afraid I haven't been keeping up with the comments in the past few days, but have been having a discussion on a brass band forum I frequent - www.themouthpiece.com. It's taken a while but the anti-ID crowd have popped their heads up there. Just wanted to say how much better I am feeling now that we reached our target, and thankyou to everyone who has signed.
    xx
    Helen Clavering, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • An interesting article from silicon.com about biometric passports ->>> http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr...
  • If Duane's link (above) doesn't work for you ... just remove the quote mark at the end of the URL (and click Go).

    Here is an excellent article by Michael Portillo:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...
  • http://eclectech.co.uk/clarkeidcards.php
    FYI, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Statewatch has issued a News Bulletin:

    http://www.statewatch.org/news/

    Different people are coming to these common issues from very different directions. If we are to succeed we must calmly accept that never in a million years will we all agree about everything, and try to stay focussed on what unites us. There's certainly a lot of food for thought for EVERYBODY in this Bulletin.
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I think the point about the eye scanners is a very good one, and one which should assist the cause. I certainly would not want some Blairite lackey pointing lasers into my eyes.
  • Todays silicon.com story tells of Siemens involvement with the new biometric passport nonsense

    http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr...

    May I suggest that we all boycott Siemens products.
  • I hear that the Child Support Agency is criticised in yet another report today and that Lord Hunt is still blaming IT problems. The CSA has been up and running for 12 years and deals with about 10% of the population. Quite apart from the human rights issues which form the basis of my objections to ID cards, what expectation can there be that the infinitely more complex IT scheme on which their efficacy will depend can ever work - even at a national level, let alone a European or global level?

    On the specific issue of crime reduction, I became a victim of criminal fraud earlier this year. I know who did it, where they live and their phone number. I have a file of evidence that I've offered to the police but beyond being issued with a crime number, I've heard no more. They regularly claim a lack of resources (my own view is that their resources are mis-directed) - what resouces will be needed to police any new ID system, where will they come from and bearing in mind that identity is not an issue in my own particular case, what guarantee is there that ID cards can offer a reduction in crime or, at worst, an improvement in prosecuting offenders?
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Just last week I heard a presentation by Lynne Jones MP, and a spokesman from Liberty at a meeting. A research is done by her and she raised her opposition against ID Cards in the House of Commons which can be viewed on her web-site: www.lynnejones.org.uk Moreover she was very concerned about how all services will soon demand a card from us, around 52 categories will be contained on the database on these cards, it seems. Is it for Security or loss of Liberty?
    Zarina Bhatia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Zarina:

    Benjamin Franklyn said "Those who give up liberty in order to obtain security, will find that they end up with neither".

    And, of course, he was absolutely right. If you give up your liberty, you just get tyranny.
  • Does anyone else find it incredible that despite the new laws being rushed through Parliament to deport hate-preaching Muslim clerics the deportation can still be appealed against with the attendant Court time and money (no doubt from public funds) that that will cost. Yet it is proposed that we, innocent law-abiding citizens, be forced to hold and pay for an ID card, be fingerprinted,iris-scanned, recorded, tracked and criminalised with no right of appeal whatsoever? What sort of filthy government have we got?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith:

    What sort of filthy government do you think?

    With London 20% Muslim, we seem to have the sort of filthy government that expects us to believe that 'Muslim suicide bombers' like killing Muslims, I suppose.
  • What sort of filthy government have we got?

    A corrupt one, that it's members are all in it for themselves instead of serving the people they supposidly represent. A government so untrustworthy that it takes a pre-emptive strike against it's own citizens by pointing the finger and saying it doesn't trust us. It wants to brand us like sheep and make us subserviant so we don't question.

    Governments should serve not rule.

    NO to ID. NO to the database state.
  • There was a light-hearted take on the Australian view on ID cards on ABC's 7.30 Report last night, and you can see this over the internet. 7.30 Report is a weekly programme that takes a satirical view on the week's events in Australian politics, usually by impersonating politicians.

    This week's one is about Prime Minister John Howard’s current visit to the US and the UK and also his position on ID cards. It lasts only two and a half minutes, and can be accessed at:

    http://abc.net.au/7.30/7.30_clarkedawe.htm

    The item on ID cards is the first one, dated 21/07/2005, and with my set-up I get the best results by choosing either ‘Real Dialup’ or ‘Real Broadband’.

    Enjoy!
  • Asshole,

    Registering to this pledge isn't compulsory - you volunteer your information (I presume Asshole is your real name, as you seem so protective of your privacy?)

    I think most people on here don't actually have a problem with being able to correctly identify people - but it's the safety, security, and mis-use of the data being held that worries people.

    J.
    Jason Sheldon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Asshole" wrote: "You oppose making it possible to correctly identify people ..."

    Not so. Speaking for myself, I already have two perfectly good forms of government-issued photo ID, namely my passport and driving licence. I have no objection to being correctly identified using them.

    I oppose being forced to pay £100 (or more) for a third, completely-unnecessary piece of government-issued ID.

    I oppose the government spending upwards £6bn of our money on this, when this would pay for 10,000 policemen or 200 large hospitals, both of which are sorely needed. I strongly suspect that the costs will escalate far beyond £6bn.

    I oppose the government gathering a huge amount of information about me in one database, where it would be a prime target for criminals to steal and abuse.

    I oppose the introduction of a single National Identity Register Number (NIRN), which would assist identity thieves, not hinder them.

    I oppose the suggestion that I should have to use an identity card whenever I access government services or spend more than £100 in the shops.

    In short, I oppose the government creating this white elephant for its own convenience, despite the huge inconvenience it will cause me (and every other UK resident) every day.

    I signed this pledge to remind the government that it exists to serve me, not the other way around. I have no objection to being correctly identified when necessary. I strongly object to being tracked, tagged and electronically followed in my daily life.
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 1.the usa must not be involved in the production of the ID CARD.
    2.the usa is a foreign country, a country to which we are allied, but still a foreign country.
    3. it is not an escape clause to let them produce the cards via a company set up in the uk for that purpose, the final owner shall still be a usa based company.
    4. usa based computer companies have messed up at least 2 major contracts for the british govt. agencies.
    The inland revenue, and the child support agency would wish they never heard of the usa computer companies, as they are getting all the flack thrown about regarding various failings of the programs.
    5. No commercial entity of any type should be allowed to gain any of the information given in the data base.
    it is not enough to say that they would charge for the info. as the service or financial companies shall just pass on the cost in hidden fees.
    The All Seeing Eye, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Todays interesting silicon.com article with reagrds to ID card costs :


    http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr...
  • Re. "Todays interesting silicon.com article" above:

    'The Home Office claims in its own benefits overview report that many of the strategic benefits of the ID card scheme will derive from the use of a unique Identity Registration Number (IRN) "unequivocally linked to an individual"'

    Phew - thank goodness for that! As long as I SAY that I'm THX17463M, I must BE THX17463M mustn't I?

    Seriously, many of these problems with a system such as this might be overcome by simply tattooing the number on an individuals forearm... although I'm SURE I've heard of something like that before....
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re Stuart H and "Today’s interesting silicon.com article" above:

    We should, I suppose, be grateful to the Home Office for at least being honest about its intention to spread the use of the Identity Registration Number (IRN) to all our other national personal records. Unfortunately, herein lies the supreme threat to our privacy. This is how I summed it up in a brief letter I had published in the Observer on 17 July:

    “David Hunt (Letters, last week) assumes that people's concerns about ID cards revolve around carrying a card. This is not so. The primary worry for many is with the proposed National Identity Register (NIR) and the associated unique identification number to be allocated to each UK citizen. Once the numbers have been created, it becomes a relatively simple administrative task to 'migrate' these to other nationally held personal records: medical, welfare, police, criminal etc.

    At a stroke, this would create a vast, integrated database of personal information, with the NIR at its hub. It would put enormous power in the hands of the state, which represents the future Orwellian nightmare at the heart of the ID card proposals.”
  • Deane Philips said :
    "Phew - thank goodness for that! As long as I SAY that I'm THX17463M, I must BE THX17463M mustn't I"

    That is my biggest objection to an ID card. Once there is a number like that it will be automatically used by every bank, insurance company, employer, educational establishemnt, Government Department and a lot of et ceteras.

    I spend a lot of time in Spain where they demand your ID before you can put a classified ad in the local paper ot join a social club. Recently, when buying a long distance coach ticket, I was asked for my ID number. I refused to give it until a good reason was given. The clerk shrugged and left it blank.

    I don't think I would have much objection to an ID card that did not have a number.
    Steven Walker, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Absolutely, John. It looks like George was right after all.

    And don't forget, potentially it may not ONLY be the State that has access to this information... Look at the marvellous opportunities for insurance companies and other businesses.

    Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you! :)
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • i totaly utterly refuse to carry a id card and i am willing to pay 10 pounds to the fund regardless of how many other people sign this pledge

    also on a side note aint this a bit of the same??? wont the goverment be able to read all our names of this register and use it for there own wicked ways??

    keep Britain great
    this land is ours not blairs of his goverment stand up be counted
    Anony Moose, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Anony Moose wrote:

    "wont the goverment be able to read all our names of this register and use it for there own wicked ways??"

    I'm sure there is some government nark somewhere keeping a list of names and numbers of people on this list.

    Fortunately we live in a land of free speech, a land which belongs to the great and the good, a land who's government respects the rights of it's citizens. If you believe that you must also believe that pigs can fly and the moon is made out of cream cheese.

    Who's to say that anyone on this list is using their real name? I could be using that of my neighbour's? A list of names like this on it's own is usless.

    Stand up, sign up and be counted. United we stand to defeat this opression and tyranny.
  • I would just like to raise a few points:

    1) Has anyone considered a national advertising campaign to highlight the problems with ID cards, to get more supporters (petitioners, donators)?

    2) Does anyone think it’s a good idea to get unions on side to promote a civil disobedience campaign, or other organisations which represent a wide cross-section of the community refusing to comply with the ID card scheme?

    3) The government is saying that people may not be able to work without an ID card number if we could find businesses to employ people cash-in-hand if necessary to avoid this, the whole scheme could collapse.
    Ibrahim Sadiq, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To Ibrahim Sadiq :

    1) Has anyone considered a national advertising campaign?

    I'm sure lots of people on here think that a national advertising campaign would be wonderful. The big problem is cost. To raise funds and ensure your advert hits the target audience costs big bucks. We're trying to raise the profile of what is really going on in the world over at www.1984brigade.com (blatent plug!). We're currently developing a webcast to make our voices heard out across the internet. If anyone wants a slot in our broadcast to shout about ID cards please drop me a line and get involved. Even doing things on a shoe string budget still costs money plus time and effort.

    2) Does anyone think it’s a good idea to get unions on side?

    The unions have little or no power and some of them just tow the labour party line. Also a lot of employers fail to recognise unions these days.

    3) The government is saying that people may not be able to work without an ID card number if we could find businesses to employ people cash-in-hand.....?

    Sticky wicket that one. I assume employers will be duty bound to record details of both employees and contractors so you'll still need an ID card. Even today your accounts would show an outgoing of cash and the Revenue will want records of where it is going.
  • Last night in the five minute Political Slot on Channel 4 “Siobhain McDonagh, Labour MP, demonstrated the need for ID cards in her own constituency of Mitcham and Morden.”

    And this proved to be spooky stuff indeed, providing chilling reminiscences of Don Siegel’s 1956 film ‘Invasion of the Body Snatchers’. McDonagh interviewed a teenager and also three of her supposed constituents, all of whom were, of course, completely ‘on message’ and unquestioningly in favour of ID cards. The following were the main points raised:

    “An ID card would cut out the hassle of proving who you are.”
    “I have nothing to hide.”
    “Carrying ID cards should be compulsory for everyone.”
    “They will help police detect crime - and particularly organised crime.”
    “ID cards will help to prevent multiple identities.”
    “They will hopefully help us to clean up our streets, making them safer for young people.”
    “This is not a new idea - we used ID cards during the war, and they did a lot of good.”
    “They will put a stop to old people getting conned.”
    “They will provide a stand against the something for nothing society. Everybody should play by the same rules.” (This final bizarre utterance appropriately coming from the MP herself.)

    So the usual unquestioning and unquestioned stuff was trotted out. Meanwhile, there was not a word uttered about costs, computers, failed IT projects, the National Identity Register, the unique personal identifier, biometrics, penalties for non-compliance, invasion of privacy, function creep, the police state, 1984 and George Orwell. This programme therefore revealed a new staggering level of political deception by the Labour party, demonstrating its shameless disregard for the truth and complete disdain for UK citizens. Such a menace in our midst needs to be roundly opposed by every concerned, responsible citizen. For George Orwell’s 1984 was all about comprehensive state dishonesty ... and here we are living with it now.
  • A thought came to me as I looked at my fingers this morning: my eczema is getting worse and my fingers have gradually lost much of their prints. How is Disability Discrimination Act (for dermatitis/eczema can be a disability) going to interlock with the ID Cards Bill? Am I going to lose my Notional Identity (or worse, break the law) if I can't produce a valid fingerprint due to a medical condition?

    I fingerprinted myself and scanned the results. These are available at http://maz.nu/tftm/2005/07/26 and suggest that I will have problems at the Passport Office in 5 years' time when the scanner refuses to recognise over half my fingers. Note to self: wear rubber gloves when washing the dishes the night before getting my new passport (Fairy washing-up liquid is one of the worst irritants for my skin).
  • Marek - don't worry - they'll get your iris scan instead!! Now if you also had glaucoma.....
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Oh let's go the whole hog and have microchip implanted at birth! We do it with dogs, horses and livestock. Then it won't matter what we're doing, with whom or where 'Big Brother' will know. George Orwell was just a couple of decades out. I'd like some privacy now, while I can still have it.
    Heather D, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Marek makes a valid point. I am doing my PhD research on the potential social exclusory effects of using biometrics for ID cards and passports. There are a lot of people who are not going to be able to enrol or verify some or all of their biometrics, with potential loss of access to all sorts of services. On the evidence of the UK Passport Service's Biometrics Enrolment Trial published in May (http://www.passport.gov.uk/downloads/UKP...) there will be over 65 000 people unable to enrol any biometrics at all. Other people in certain identifiable groups will also be at risk of social exclusion - see my article at www.privacyinternational.org/article.sht... for more details. ID cards are bad, biometrics ID cards are worse!
    Jeremy Wickins, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • With regards to Jeremy Wickins post:

    Didn't someone try something like this about 60 years ago?

    Certain members of a society who didn't fit in to the "superior/master" class were identified. This group were then given extra benefits like free train rides and housing in special camps with all their friends. The aim of all this was to make sure they didn't fit in permanently.

    The whole thing stinks. Say NO to ID, say NO to the database state.
  • It's times like these when people should be made to watch Terry Gilliam's "Brazil".

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/
    Anon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tony Blair says "I won't give an inch to terrorism":
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4...

    ("No ... I'll just make the UK electorate bow down to my every whim instead ...")
  • Regarding “Siobhain McDonagh, Labour MP, demonstrated the need for ID cards in her own constituency of Mitcham and Morden.”, and as an example the quote “They will put a stop to old people getting conned.” (thanks for the reference John Welford)

    What a fantastic idea, a pensioner (someone over 75 years old if Bliar has his way) only needs to insert the local travelling folk's ID card into his or her 2000 pound smart card reader, and after paying an access fee, will be able to check whether said person would do a good job of asphalting his or her lawn.

    Jobs a good 'un - NOT!!!!
    Martin Bell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I see Tony Blair's name on this list. Has he signed with us, against ID cards?! Cheri Booth his wife on ICJ I believe and a Human Rights barrister is more qualified than her husband. She has made a sane statement about losing liberty and this state bseing in danger of being called 'civilised' any longer; not her words used in my comment. I think there will be a ton of bricks flung on her, perhaps we could say a word or two, to commend her reaction to the hardline of our Govt.
    Zarina Bhatia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Zarina:

    Ever heard of "Good Cop ... Bad Cop"?

    It is one of the oldest in the book.
  • Zarina:

    I’m afraid that Blair has signed in twice so far, once as ‘Anthony Charles Lynton Blair’ and the second time as plain ‘Tony Blair’. I suspect that this must be his rather unsubtle way of demonstrating the ambiguities that can arise from multiple identities and so the clear need for an identity card...
  • Wow, that's me convinced! Where do I sign up for a card?
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Zarina - Cherie Booth may indeed bill herself as a "human rights barrister" but her past record, amongst other things as a prosecution QC at the trial of many poll tax protestors, hardly puts her in the same camp as real human rights lawyers like Gareth Peirce, Imran Khan and Michael Mansfield.
    Very pleasantly surprised at her statements today, though whether her husband will take them on board heaven only knows.
    Tez Burke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I agree with you Tez Burke, however, she has spoken up favourably before on Palestinian suicide bombers having no option, for this she had to apologise to the Jewish lobby T-B called for a Party at 10 Downing St, I vaguely remember and like a naughty school girl she had to say 'sorry'. On another recent occasion she was interviewed about T-B's political ambitions for standing for the third term and she said she had personally nothing to do with his ambitions, another mildly 'bold' standing. Of course, she stands no comparision with Gareth Pierce, Imran Khan etc at all, I am fully aware of that! Incidentally, Gareth spoke up about the 'murder' of that poor Brazilian on the TV.
    Zarina Bhatia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Zarina:

    You appear to imagine that Cherie Blair is possibly the re-incarnation of Mother Theresa. If you recall it came to light, during "Cheriegate", that she makes her decisions based on Astrology, with help from her dear friend Carole Caplin - (at the time) partnered with Aussie conman Peter Foster, who arranged the questionable purchase of the two flats in Bristol. Was this the example of Cherie's record on 'human rights'?

    You see, Zarina, words are cheap, "actions" are what tells the real story.

    I think you will find that Ms. Booth is married to the man who wants to foist an unnecessary ID Card on you, wants your DNA, and all of your personal information that he can sell at a huge profit, has an inconceivable amount of fresh human blood (of many Nationalities) on his conscience (presumably). She is married to this consummate doctor of spin and bender of truths.

    I think you will find that she is leading you right up the garden path, without a paddle (if you will excuse a few mixed metaphors).

    Her husband knows that 'the game is up' ... for him. He now has too much (publicly) dirty linen to his name. His election victory in May 2005 was seriously worse than he thought. It is sufficient to 'carry on', but nothing like what he would have wished. His support is very much on the downturn.

    In fact, he is very much in the same situation as Clinton after his (Clinton's) second term i.e. a 'dead horse', a 'lame duck'

    So - what is Clinton doing about it? "Hillary for President in 2008!!!!" is the current battle cry.

    All of this PR, that you seem to be falling for, is obviously leading up to "Cherie for Prime Minister!!!".

    At that point the ex-Labourites suddenly wake up, flock back, go back to sleep, and Tony's masterplan carries on under a new name."

    DSP
  • This last comment is very apt and really great! I belong to the same club as you, you know! I am no admirer of either of these 2, the most opportunist, dictatorial re-incarnations of ... I shall refrain from using names of the world's worst warmongers, T-B has blood of Bosnians, Afghanis, Iraqis etc on his hands...Heaven help us All from his ID Cards Policy and from his tyrrany. Thanks for your comment! Zarina
    Zarina Bhatia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes, and Cherie's acting ability is obviously inherited from her father.

    Who can possibly forget the Oscar-nominated performance she gave during 'Cheriegate'?
  • You've got to laugh haven't you... otherwise you'd probably end up weeping.
    Weasel, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Weasle,

    I'm already weeping, mourning for this once great country and the terrible state it has been reduced to by those we put in power.

    I am weeping for a land that I once called home, a country I now no longer want to be associated with. I'm seriously looking at emigrating.

    Does anyone know of a country where they welcome immigrants with open arms? It must be a place where the State doesn't get involved with the daily lives of its citizens. Does such a place exist?

    I don't want to leave the UK as making this move the Government will have won but at the end of the day if ID cards are introduced I don't think I could live in a police state.

    Duane
  • I've been thinking about leaving too. Can't just yet due to my current job but I've grown more and more disillusioned with "this green and pleasant land" over the past few years.

    Canada's meant to be quite nice, at least the place doesn't seem to be run by complete idiots.
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Chris,

    I can't leave yet either I have responsibilities too (children etc) but no harm in planning ahead. Canada looks good but I think they're quite strict on immigration, I was toying with somewhere a little closer Norway or Sweden perhaps.

    Sweden appeals in that I can speak the lingo, its 4 times the size of the UK and has the population of London so there is nobody there. The big problem with Sweden is that its more of a nanny state than here! I'm currently looking at the possibility of Ireland and Norway.

    Holland is out, they're becoming quite right wing and intolerant of immigrants of any race.
  • Two interesting quotes from the LSE report which concern the potential for ID card forgery. The first relates to a country that doesn’t as yet have ID cards: “The potential for forgery and fraud is one of the most persuasive arguments against identity cards in the United States.” (p 115)

    The second quote relates to a country which does have ID cards: “This year the Israeli government estimated that “hundreds of thousands” of fake ID cards are in the hands of its population.” (p 169)

    So not much comfort there for those who present the ID card as being the universal panacea for every problem. And especially perhaps for those of us, such as the elderly and small businesses, who lacking online verification facilities, will be as vulnerable to conning as ever.

    However, our government will not be too concerned about a little bit of forgery here and there, or indeed the fate of the elderly or small businesses. For the creation of ID cards is ultimately of secondary importance, and is merely the cover. Their primary objective, of course, is to uniquely number every citizen and create their much desired database state.
  • Duane, Chris, John Welford:

    I think you all seem to be a little 'behind the times'.

    1) The US Senate passed the Real ID Card Act earlier this year. It 'Federalises' a single ID Card for all US Citizens.

    2) Sweden has ID Cards already.

    3) The US Senate passed the CAFTA legislation last Friday. This integrates Canada + US + Mexico as one big 'North American Union/Super-State'. Paul Martin (Canada) and Vincente Fox (Mexico) are fans of G W Bush.

    4) Australia are now exhuming their once-failed ID Card legislation in the light of the London Bombings. John Howard (Australia) is a fan of G W Bush.

    Actually, of course, what binds Tony Blair, Dubya, Howard, Martin, Fox, Hillary Clinton et al. together is their fanship of Rupert Murdoch (Prop: The Times, The Sun, Fox News, Sky).

    There is no-where to run, and no-where to hide from the New World Order.

    The only thing to do is to dig in your heels, stand up on your hind legs, and FIGHT YOUR CORNER. And the best predictions are that we only have about 5 years left in which to do that because their 'grid' is almost in place.
  • There is another pledge for ID Cards and a petition to be signed. Do all Pledge Bank list of ours know of this? Here it is:

    http://www.no2id-petition.net/
    Zarina Bhatia, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It's been a long time since anyone made this point on this forum, so I thought it worth repeating: In order to stand any chance of drawing a large number of people into signing this pledge (which obviously we need if it is to succeed in its aims), we really, really need to keep the conspiracy theories to a minimum.

    Veronica Chapman (among others): Please don't think I'm getting at you, because I'm not - we're all on the same side here. I know you think you have good evidence for what you believe, and I'm not going to argue with you, because for present purposes it genuinely *doesn't matter* whether you're right or not. You realise, of course, that there are a lot of people who will not agree with you, and the simple fact is that many of them will be taking one look at this forum, reading some of the more extreme theories being presented, and will run away, convinced that we're all insane. Like I say, I'm not making any comment about whether you're right or not, I'm just saying we need to focus on the more 'moderate' angle (e.g. the human rights issues and the technical problems of implementation) if we're going to have any chance of success.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic Shakeshaft (and other 'self-appointed Censors'):

    Have you ever heard of 'free speech'?

    I could report your comments as abusive to me, but in the interests of free speech, I won't of course. Instead I'll use the civilised course of 'rebuttal'.

    Have we become a nation that cannot stand to hear the truth? This is, of course, the implication of your point about my comments 'driving people away'.

    Is it really necessary to remind you which part of the anatomy of an ostrich is most exposed, when its head is buried in the sand?

    If people are 'driven away' by the truth, then they would not be involved for the right reasons, I suggest.

    Which is more important: To understand the reasons behind the crumbling of the wall, or to simply contemplate the £93 cost of some new wallpaper?

    With regard to Conspiracy Theories, please get your facts straight. Every single news item you ever read, or saw on TV, is - BY DEFINITION - Conspiracy Theory.

    The question isn't "Whether or not to listen to Conspiracy Theories" because you cannot avoid them.

    The only question is, I suggest, "Which to believe"? The 'Chinese whispers' promulgated by Mainstream Media, or the truth as properly researched?

    I further suggest that if you, or anyone else, has anything to say to me, then you do it personally. My e-mail address is available via the 1984 Brigade WebSite.

    I notice you say, in your comment that you are not going to argue with me because "it genuinely doesn't matter". Sorry, Nic - that's simply YOUR OPINION. In my opinion (and many others) IT GENUINELY DOES MATTER.
  • I think Nic's comments were pretty fair and I know I certainly agree with the sentiments behind them. I think that the comments on this pledge need to reflect the moderate views as well as the slightly more extreme ones. So him making one comment, (as opposed to daily ones!) is fair. In-fighting is not the idea and I feel that the reply above is uncessarily aggressive. It comes across as 'if you don't 100% agree with me, then you're against me' but I genuinely don't believe that that is how they were intended.

    Nic's comments echo previous attempts on here by myself and others to try and make this particular pledge more accessible to the 'mainstream' reader. It's a brilliant thing that so many people want to discuss the issue, but maybe those of us from a more moderate standpoint should say more and then the opinions conveyed from comments would be wider. Then everyone gets two put in their penny's worth but everyone is represented!

    We're all after the same thing - we just have different ways of persauding people how dangerous ID cards are!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Veronica Chapman: The idea of reporting Nic Shakeshaft's comment as 'abusive' is ridiculous. His comment was polite, appropriate, and did not attack you personally. Your response, on the other hand, was rude, paranoid, and entirely over the top. Feel free to carry on with your conspiracy theories, but I agree with Nic that they are NOT the point here. Whether you think a group of Freemasons are planning to take over the world or not, saying so will NOT encourage moderate people to sign this pledge, and it will NOT draw people to our side. You must surely accept that the majority of people don't believe such conspiracy theories, especially without proof - and despite claiming cast-iron proof on your website, you never once offer any hard data.

    I don't care whether your conspiracy theory is correct or not. I care about freedom and civil liberty, and as such, about ID Cards. This pledge is NOT the place for you to air your personal beliefs and grievances - you have your own website for that. That isn't curtailing your free speech - you can say what you like. All Nic, myself and various others are respectfully *requesting* is that you don't prejudice possible allies in the fight against ID cards by making us all sound like a bunch of fanatics.

    Thank you.
    Kerry Schofield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Veronica Chapman:

    >abusive

    With respect, I really don't think I was. I made it perfectly clear that I am making no comment whatsoever about the validity of your arguments - I know no more about this than anyone else, so fully accept of course that my views and ideas are no more valuable than any other. I'm simply suggesting that the campaign against ID cards is so important that it is worth doing whatever is necessary to get lots of people to sign up - and if that means presenting first and foremost the ideas with which they are most likely to agree readily, with a minimum of persuasion, then that is what we should do. To put it bluntly, Blair et al show no hesitation in doing this, and you have to ask yourself whether you're really prepared to let him win by refusing to play the same game.

    >If people are 'driven away' by the
    >truth, then they would not be involved
    >for the right reasons, I suggest.

    If people sign this pledge and support the fight, then why does it matter whether their reasons for doing so are what you consider the 'right' ones? The first thing must be to ensure that we win - there will be plenty of time to try to gather support for other causes and ideas when that end is achieved.

    >I notice you say, in your comment that
    >you are not going to argue with me
    >because "it genuinely doesn't matter".

    "...for present purposes...", I said.

    To use your analogy of the crumbling wall, the first thing to do is to avert the current danger and stop the house from collapsing - worrying about what caused the danger, and how to prevent it from happening again, comes afterwards.

    I am sorry if I caused you offence. It was unintentional.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Veronica, losing your temper like that isn't helping your point. This message board isn't your personal soap box.

    Time and time again people on this pledge have requested that we narrow the focus to ID cards, yet at times you seem to be more keen to promote your website.

    Your opinion is very important, but you have your own place online to cover all the subjects that irk you in the depth you clearly feel they deserve.

    No-one's censoring you, we're just asking you to stay on topic while in this particular place so that Joe Public can see the informed discussion we are having on ID cards, and not be put off by sensationalist terms such as "New World Order".

    Anon
    Anon, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ellen,
    I think those of us who are in the "more moderate" group have either said what needed to be said, or have seen someone else say it, in the earlier comments.

    The only things left are news stories, and tactics for fighting it or convincing people.
    Thurstan McDougle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID Cards are bad.
    Chris, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thurstan - yes, we have, repeatedly! I was just trying to suggest a solution that everyone might like.... then everyone can rant as much as they want... Trying to keep everyone happy... end up pleasing no-one!!!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • “Thanks for the pledge info. I don't think I'll sign. Not too impressed with the contents of the website. A bunch of self-centred oddballs.”

    This was the disappointing response I received from a good, fairly level-headed friend back in June after I’d urged them to sign our pledge.

    The case against the government’s ID card project is very strong: just read the LSE report’s conclusions if you doubt this. Secondly, when people are presented with the simple unvarnished facts about ID cards they invariably come out strongly against them. This was evidenced during the most recent Radio 4 ‘Any Questions’ programme, when following an audience vote Jonathan Dimbleby stated that “an overwhelming number oppose ID cards”. Everything therefore appears to be going our way.

    However, if the government is set on undermining the views of NO2ID and this pledge it clearly has two main strategies at its disposal. Firstly, it can try to weaken the strong case that’s being presented by diverting the debate into other less relevant areas. Secondly, it can try to malign NO2ID supporters in whatever way it can, for example, by presenting them as irresponsible, non-representative and extremist.

    Therefore if we wish to win the argument and see the ID card proposals defeated then we must resist such strategies and not fall into any government traps. Instead we need to stay with our central strong case and argue this cogently and persistently. The wind is blowing in our direction, and so it ought to be very simple! So let’s sharpen up, aim to consolidate our support and go for the next 10,000 signatures.
  • John - which edition of "Any Questions" was this? When the subject came up in an edition of the show broadcast from Deddington (north Oxon) a few weeks ago, the audience were firmly against, though I'm pretty sure this was pre-7/7. It would be very heartening if this was a very recent edition.
    Tez Burke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Well one thing has been proven with this afternoon's volley of comments, their are still people out there alive and paying attention.

    What we all agree on is that ID cards along with their underlying database are a bad idea. That fact at least unites us again a common enemy.

    As for anything else, well we all have various ideas as to what other underhanded and sneaky plans those in Westminster village have got in store for us. Some of us may wish to just see the job in hand and remain focused upon it, while others are looking at the broader picture as to where the next assault will come from.

    ID cards do on a whole fit into a bigger picture of control. What the final picture is of is open to debate. Some may see the picture as a field of fluffy lambs tended to by a caring shepheard other may see a picture of demons and other horrors. Which ever picture you see the common theme is control and restriction of free will.

    We must all stand united for the common cause and against the common enemy.
  • Tez - this was the ‘Any Questions’ from Deddington in Oxfordshire that you refer to. But it was indeed especially heartening since this was broadcast on the 8th July, i.e. the day immediately following the London bombings. This is how I reported it in my earlier mailing of 10 July:

    “There was an interesting straw in the wind during the ‘Any Questions’ Radio 4 programme from the village of Deddington in Oxfordshire on Friday evening. One inevitable question raised was whether ID cards would have helped to prevent the London bombings. All four panellists, including government minister Alan Johnson, were in agreement that they would not have helped. But, interestingly, following the discussion, chairman Jonathan Dimbleby put the question to the assembled audience: “Who favours ID cards?” According to Dimbleby, the response was that “an overwhelming number oppose ID cards”. And remarkably this strong antipathy was expressed on the day immediately following the London bombings, when you might have expected there to have been more equivocation.”
  • I'd like to second Nic Shakeshaft's comment.

    The strength of this campaign lies in the broad spectrum of people who are united behind it.

    Please let's focus on what unites us, not any differences we may have.

    I'm sure I would disagree with some other signatories on foreign policy, gun control, police powers of arrest, or all sorts of other issues. That doesn't matter. There are also many reasons to oppose ID cards (civil liberties, risk of ID theft, waste of public money, individual cost etc). Again, it genuinely doesn't matter why each of us opposes ID cards. The important thing is that we all do, that we act together, and that we do our best to encourage others to join us, regardless of their other views.

    I'm about to write to my local newspaper about the pledge. If you're reading this and thinking about posting a comment, can I suggest that you take an extra 2 minutes and also write to your local paper?

    Onwards to the next 10,000 signatories!
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My main worry about ID cards is that it will enable the government to do the same sort of "profiling" of people that marketing groups have been doing for decades now. Essentially it could amount to a legalised form of discrimination, against "persons that fit profile X", but since this won't correspond to a race or faith or age-group, it will be very very hard to identify where it is occuring and to prove that discrimination is also taking place. The fact it is based on "real data" also means that the government can use the pseudo-science of correlation studies to justify their actions. Think: "90% of people in category B are an above-average tax burden, so we'll charge them more council tax."
    Stephen Brooks, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If we really have no choice in the matter then I say that if they want us to have it, then they pay for it!!! I pay enough in taxes both open and overt, without having to pay for something that says who I am. Come back George Orwell, all is forgiven...
    Bill, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The beginning of the backtrack on ID/NIR? From today's Independent. (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politic...)

    "Perhaps in the past the Government in its enthusiasm oversold the advantages of ID cards. We did suggest or at least imply that they may well be a panacea for ID fraud, benefit fraud, terrorism and entitlement, and access to public services."

    - Tony McNulty
    Chris McClelland, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My solid belief in life is that 'united we stand and devided we fall'. We cannot afford to fall on this issue or any other issues posed by this government whose main aim is to introduce as many legislations it possibly can within a very short time, so as to oppress us and take away our civil liberties. Tony Blair would love us to get into this petty squable over who said what theory or conspiracy, where and when, as it gives him the opportunity to regroup his croonies whilst we are side tracked by our petty squables.

    I am never one with solutions, but my suggestions here would be;
    - to respect the website for what it is
    - to accommodate people with wider views to say it on this site.
    For you never know what will influence someone who is apathetic about the ID cards but passionate about brave Brian being refused the civil right to demonstrate in Parliament square, to be won over on the ID card issue. As I believe, this is an open and honest debate, I have learnt a lot about some of these conspiracy theories, something I damn well know that I would never have read in detail had I not come accross it on this site first.

    This is my personal view, from personal experience. I believe that we are in this state of degeneration as a people and as a society, because we love to tittle tattle over the irrelevant instead of engaging in constructive practicalities. We spend hours going on about 'who said what, when, where and how, whilst the politicians get on with their draconian laws.' As adults, we should be spending more quality time conviencing those friends and relatives who refuse to sign this pledge because they disagree with a theory, rather than spending hours criticising each other on who wrote what and how. Good sense will tell someone with common sense who does not agree with the introduction of the ID cards, to disregard the difference and sign the pledge otherwise he/she is wasting her rights. If you disagree with someone, surely you cannot refuse to get in the same train with him/her if you are travelling to the same destination.

    Let us give credit where it is deserved. People like Veronica and Duanne have kept some of us well informed and given some of us a wider view of the implications of living in a control freak state. They do their research, we may or may not agree with the conclusive hypothesis of a particular research, but that is research for you.

    Personally, I am not discouraged by the decline in the signatories. This is because:
    1. We have reached our target - more is best of course.
    2. In Lewisham we are endlessly leafleting and having stalls where we engage in discussions and debates with real people face to face. Issues of discussions do not just revolve around ID cards, but include issues related to other draconian laws and wars. Overall the majority agree with us. Not all these people use the internet.
    3. In my bag I always carry the NO2ID leaflets, ready to discuss with anyone if the opportunity arises.

    Finally, for what-ever it takes, let us do this democratically, logically and spread the net so that we catch as many fish as we can using 'whatever means necessary'. For a devided house always falls apart.

    Florence aka Warrior
    florence, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • How encouraging it is to see in today’s news that the government is at last admitting that it has oversold its case for ID cards. For it is conceding that they will not prove a panacea for fraud, terrorism or the abuse of public services. So now that they have lost the argument over the benefits of ID cards to the state, what can they possibly do next? No problem at all, for, according to Home Office minister Tony McNulty they are going to switch the argument yet once more - this time, quite naturally, to emphasize the benefits to the individual citizen!

    Labour spinners must now be licking their lips at all the promotional possibilities. And if you want to gain some idea of how Labour might now start to promote ID cards there’s an amusing piece on the ‘Orwell Today’ website entitled ‘Scans-U-Right - For Those Who Have Nothing to Hide’. The minor disadvantage of this particular scheme is that you have to have your personal ID number barcoded and tattooed onto your forehead.

    But once this is done, you then get all the fantastic benefits, and everyone is guaranteed to be a winner! In particular, there will be substantial discounts and priority processing on all kinds of services, from speedy airline tickets to sporting events. Plus there will no longer be any need to carry credit cards, cash or a driving licence - Scans-U-Right will do it all for you.

    For more on these not-to-be-missed promotional possibilities (Downing Street please note), go to:

    http://www.orwelltoday.com/readerscanuri...
  • I see Tony Blair also signed this pledge. I wonder where he is going to stand once this legislation is enforced, because I will be at the front of the que, just waiting for any imbecile to forcibly hold me down so as to scan my iris and fingerprint my thumb. War be to you Tony, because if you happen to stand next to me, you will walk off worse off than your ignorant officials employed by you to enforce this stupid legislation.

    I repeat for your benefit Tony, my name is Florence Durrant. I am a nurse, my family and friends know me, my patients know me, even some weirdoes know me. I was born free, and I will die free. As long as I am alive, not you or anybody will tag me, label me, scan me, thumb me or put any chip on my scalp. We have done it to cattle and other livestock because we own them. No one owns me.

    florence the warrior
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This whole ID card thing is a bluff. It's purpose is to get "you all" ready for being chipped. Which, when it comes in with a low low price and a nice little "know where your loved ones are" tag line, will be embraced by most.
    Dark days are here.
    Who will really be able to resist this chip when you can't buy, or sell, or work, or get health treatment or housing without it?
    The other point has to be this... Do you really think that there isn't already a central database containing details on you?
    wholehearted, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Todays silicon.com article re: ID Cards

    http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr...
  • I agree totally with you wholeheartedly, we happily gave everything about ourselves to the state a long time ago. Call it census, surveys, passports, bank details, DV, all done with a big smile, for nanny state knows best! Why on earth do they still want some more, and why are we still prepared to give it to them?

    Credit to those who fought and died centuries before us, for this is exactly what they were fighting to preserve, being owned by another person under the guise of a state owned 'databank'. How can you, i ask man/woman give yourself away so willingly to another man/woman? What is it that he/she has, that you do not have? Or is it that as a people/society we get pleasure in being told what to do, how to do it, where to go, how to get there?

    Putting these conditions based on having an ID just indicates how dubious and uncanny the whole scheme is. Surely if it is for my own protection, I should not be penalised for not having one, if I choose not to be protected by a plastic card. Let us not allow amnesia to control us, for these identity states have been around before, with just one divide us as a people for the benefit of the ruling conglomerates who measure their success on earth by their exploiting powers.

    My option stands, 'it will be war first' before they pin me down.

    Warrior
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • No need for any conspiracy theories. The facts as they stand are bad enough. The database and card are an intrusion on MY privacy, and a spectacular waste of money. The downright dishonest way this government of mendacious weasels has presented this bill adds insult to injury. I will never co-operate with this appalling scheme.
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 10% over target and still two months to collect more signatures!

    Let's not get complacent - keep spreading the word!
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Isn't anyone else but me profoundly worried by the ease with which Bliar's lot have airbrushed out all the tub-thumping anti-ID card issues
    - terrorism,asylum seekers,cost,fingerprinting,iris-scanning,identity fraud....all of which could be explained to people and arouse their condemnation, and replaced them with the 'passport-lite'which sounds so necessary, innocent, reasonable (just a few extra bits added on like fingerprints - to help with terrorism, you know..international requirements!") Of course, we know fingerprints on passports are not international requirements, all they require is a biometric (a digital photograph), and that the extra bits are Bliar's idea. BUT, how do we demolish the insiduous, piecemeal acquirement by the government of all citizens' details for their database just the same, as and when people need to renew, or apply for, a passport? Equally, now that the rug has been pulled from under us in terms of opposition to ID cards that people can relate to (the big issues, including civil liberty) how do we counter the "voluntary" acquisition of the "new" passport, which gives them all they want to know anyway? And, what is our platform in terms of demolishing the 'passport-lite'? If they use chip and pin (which they are suggesting) then this makes the 'passport-lite' even more cosy and familiar and acceptable to the public. Quite honestly, I can't think round this one. How do we deal with it?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith, the best method is educating those we come accross, who upon discussion seem to agree with Tony Blair's ID plans. Just talking to strangers on issues like this has earned me a lot of friends and gives me great satisfaction when someone pro ID cards is won over to seeing them for what they really are.

    What I also learnt since I started campaigning on such issues is, a person stops being strange (stranger) once you engage in conversation with him/her.

    Good luck and have fun whilst doing it.

    Flojo
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This nice little letter in the FT yesterday may give some kind of lead, although not everybody will be happy with the idea of private companies providing certificates of personal identity as a business, which is basically what he's mooting:

    "So how come no one has thought of secure ID before?

    Sir, So the government's latest line is that identity cards are justified by the benefits to us as individuals. In that case, why must they be government-issued and compulsory?

    If I bought ID voluntarily from a private sector provider, and found they were too nosey, expensive, useless, indiscreet or insecure, then I could change provider or cancel the service completely. If they really made a mess, I could even sue them. Such safeguards would not exist with a government-mandated card.

    Come to think of it, if secure ID is so useful, how come there isn't already a thriving market?

    Rob Findlay"
    Denis Cooper, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith,

    I now believe that the way to beat this is to do what were doing by rising up, raising our voices and saying "NO". I also think that the time is now right for a new group of politicians to step forward and fight this from within.

    What I believe we need is a new political party that is prepared to fight for the rights of the people, common sense and true justice (not secret courts run behind closed doors. Justice must be seen to be done). We need a party that will not succumb to corruption and power which seems to affect those that become part of the Westminster Village.

    This country needs a strong incorruptible leader one who isn't in the pockets of industry (drugs,petro-chemical, etc) one who will not side with those who are blatently wrong (taking us to war on a false premise, and antagonising others in the process) one who will stand our corner instead of compromising and taking this country places it's people do not want to go. We need a leader who only has the interests of his people at heart instead of the what's in it for me (and what can my wife get out of it too) philosophy.

    I want my Great Britain back. The Great Britain I was proud of as a child instead of this sorry land I now happen to live in. We've had a regime change in Iraq perhaps its time for one in this country. Parliament needs shaking up but it has to be lead by the people. Proportional representation is a good place to start (see Brian Eno's pledge) as it will stop MPs from taking their positions for granted. Parliament is there to serve not rule. The people don't need ID cards, the people don't want biometric passports so Parliament should just back off and listen.

    In todays climate the above is probably considered treacherous so is anyone on the list any good at baking cakes with files in?
  • http://management.silicon.com/government... <<--- The tracking has already begun. If you're not paying your way then fair enough you should be brough to book (not that I agree with council tax. People should be charged on the ability to pay. Most of your council tax increases go towards pension increases for the police and fire services).

    The idea of a national database tracking your movements stinks. I think this is where the big problem lies, it's the database and its contents that back up the ID cards that is the crux of the whole issue.
  • http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr... <-- the smell is getting worse.

    Plans are afoot to railroad ID cards through parliament by invoking the Parliament act! We don't live in a democracy any more we live in a dictorship run by committee.

    Vive la republique!
  • In reply to Duane:

    This needs a bit of clarification. The issue is over secondary legislation, which the government cannot use the Parliament Act on. What the article you quote says is that the government may take out the requirement in the existing Bill for the House of Lords to be involved in passing secondary legislation that will make ID cards compulsory, because the Lords will block their attempts to do so. The Parliament Act could not be invoked in that situation, as it only applies to primary legislation. There are other ways the government can get around this, but I've seen no signs of it ... yet!
    --
    Jeremy Wickins,
    PhD Researcher, Biometrics and Social Exclusion,
    Sheffield Institute of Biotechnological Law and Ethics (SIBLE),
    Department of Law,
    University of Sheffield,
    169/171, Northumberland Road,
    Crookesmoor,
    Sheffield. S10 1DF
    UK.
    Jeremy Wickins, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Jeremy,

    Care to expand on the "other ways"? Helps us to know what we're up against and how to spot the signs.

    Duane
  • But still no-one has addressed the specific question: if the ID database is sneaked in on the back of, inside, wrapped round, sandwiched between -- however you like to put it -- a PASSPORT, how are we the public to refuse to be part of the whole scam? We refuse = no 'passport-lite' = prisoner in our own country, until they've introduced the 'passport-liter-still' which will be a permit to NOT have to have a passport, and still get us tagged and numbered. Once they have abandoned the lie (which they appear to have done) that the initially suggested ID card (piece of plastic with hidden database) would be the magic wand to make everything nasty disappear, they only needed to think of a seemingly non-confrontational way of dragging us into the net --- haven't they found it by linking ID and database to something we all need - a passport? How do we counter this specific proposal?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • BCS CONCERNS OVER ID CARDS RAISED IN COMMONS DEBATE

    The British Computer Society concerns were, once more, raised in the House of Commons by opposition home secretary David Davies.

    http://www.bcs.org/ebulletin/050810/idca...
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith,

    In response to your post the only way to defeat the whole thing is from within, the establishment needs to be radically altered. (See my previous post)

    Unfortunately we've now missed our window of opportunity for another three and a half years. The main problem we have is the apathetic general public who have this blinkered opinion that their single vote wont change anything.

    NO2ID stated that they are a none partisan group before the last general election perhaps they should consider becoming a political party themselves?

    Maybe the signatures on this list should consider forming our own party there are 11000 (and counting) of us after all. A few strategically placed candidates would ensure that we could get the required votes to at least get our money back. It would then raise a signal to the establishment that there are some of out here who can see what they're upto and are not prepared to be hearded along like cattle.

    Duane
  • Just to add to your response Duanne, 'Nothing beats talking to people face to face, most people share our anger and frustration at this government, but are brow beaten to submission to be the first to stand up. All they need is someone fired up with a wide imagination like you Judith! So why not take the lead, not in writing, but by starting a group in your area, to discuss, dissect and analyse what could be in Tony Bliar's goodie bag in terms of his ID card agenda. After all, previous experience has all taught us that Tony Bliar is a man of Agendas for Destruction.'

    Ben, a young lad started one group in Lewisham, all by himself and now he has built a wonderful network of all ages. Even I, feel humbled by his organisational and communication skills.
    This is the best platform to find out from other people what to do should Mr Agenda for change, engage in the tactics you are talking about Judith, i.e. from real people who will make Mr Bliar win/fail, i.e. the ordinary man and woman walking along your street.

    Flowie
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Florence, I have already started a group last February in my area (a branch of the NO2ID national campaign). We began to organise a public meeting for October. However the government has moved the goalposts once more. It is for this specific reason that I want to know how the platform at such a meeting could envisage addressing the proposed 'passport-lite' To arouse people's ire and opposition by talking about terrorism,aliens,identity fraud, cost
    numbering, tagging,etcetera, is now not an option as the government is, in its usual underhanded way (realising the strength of opposition to 'the little bit of plastic')now proposing a 'user-friendly non-confrontational' approach by linking the ID card (and database) to the passport which we all need and want. We can hardly have a platform of two MPs, one Union boss, one IT expert slamming the innocent-looking, cheap 'passport-lite',("a 'normal' passport with a few extra bits added on for 'your' security"!) and as someone rightly says,uninformed (that is,most) people may generally think it's not a bad idea. Therefore we have to think of another approach,and so far, I can't think of it.
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hi Judith,

    Your IT expert on the platform can certainly present a good case using the professional opinions of the British Computer Society see: http://www.bcs.org/ebulletin/050810/idca...
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith Chisholm:

    I don't really see the problem, as regards forming an intelligent opposition to the passport-lite. The problem with the ID card scheme as a whole (for me at least) was never the cards themselves, but rather the compulsory taking and storing of vast quantities of personal data - so it's the database that's the problem, and this is surely still true of the passport-lite. If there are genuine problems with e.g. infringement of civil liberties and potential risks to insecurely stored personal data (quite apart from the time and cost involved) when this information is taken for ID cards, then how is this any less true if the same information is taken (ostensibly) for a different purpose? The key to fighting it is the same as the key to fighting the ID scheme: publicity. Reach as many people as possible, by any means possible, and publicise the problems. Easier said than done, I know, but not really any more so for this than for the ID scheme itself.
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The group in your own area is the first step - well done Judith. The fact of the matter however is, if we are dealing with an unpredictable dictating liar like Tony Bliar and his croonies, a sense of humour sometimes helps to get people to relax. The ID card is just one of the many legislations that this government is purpoting to introduce or has already introduced with one aim: To make us all submit to him. This is a man who knows he has lost his game, from a Mr Popular, to a Mr Murderer. These last elections were proof enough for him. So what does a man do to save his skin - dictatorship is his only way out.

    I do understand your concern regarding the conspiracies and theories, however judging by the number of people signing our pledge, something is attracting people to this pledge. The very first day when Ben, myself and another fellow campaigner stood in front of Lewisham library we were all nervous. It was the first for all of us, trying to convience people whose main priority is the daily survival (Lewisham is a deprived area) to stop and discuss about IDs was a daunting factor. Within the first ten minutes however, we had broken through, people were coming to our stand, just because those already by our stand had joined us in fun. We shared political jokes of what it means to be in Tony Blair's democracy. We recruited many who are now active members, got lots of support and plenty money.

    Going back to your point of this latest scheme where Mr Bliar changes his mind to fit the mood, it is nothing new. All you can do is:
    1. Get as much fact on this as you possibly can.
    2. Analyse its downside and its relation to past experiences including why you feel it is just the same as this ID.
    3. Lay it out on the table for discussion with your branch with a view of conviencing them of your analysis.
    Just carry it from there, for you never know with Mr Bliar, by the time you have just done that, he would have changed his mind and introduced the ID cards in another version more obscure with more attractive offers to the general public. But what-ever you do, if it does not work do not despair, for this is something new to all of us and I can assure you for a fact that none of us has an answer. The answer I know for a fact is, if we mobilise as many people as we can against this legislation or any for that matter democratically and logically, it does not matter how we do it.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Judith, Apologies for not stating that my message of today at 13.18 was in response to your message to me today at 12.44 pm. Personally, I love debates and discussions, so feel free to respond if you want to. We are fighting the same issue using what either works for us through experience or just trying out new ways!
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re. organising opposition.

    Here in Brighton & Hove a small number of us relaunched the NO2ID group in May by using well-tried techniques.

    We set up a paste-table outside a local supermarket on a weekday afternoon. On all sides of the table we stuck some big and bold painted banners saying "Stop ID Cards. sign our petition"

    And people did.

    In fact people signed at a rate of one per minute, and we often had queues.

    We now have around 1,000 signatures and nearly 250 who signed up to the email newsletter.

    We also organised a local NO2ID meeting at a cafe just up the road from the supermarket.

    Thirty-five people came along. We had a 15 minute introduction, a 25 minute quick-fire Q&A session and 15 minutes discussing local activities - more stalls, lobbing MPs etc.

    This exercise has both set up a local NO2ID network in a small part of the city and totally rejuvenated the city-wide NO2ID group.

    Andy Player, Brighton & Hove
    Andy Player, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Yes, Andy, but the devil's in the detail: it's not the easy-to-grasp slogan "Stop ID Cards" any more. They have (to all intents and purposes) 'stopped'ID cards. They're on to an all singing and dancing passport now. Do we say "Stop passports!"? What this means in fact is we have to go into detail and subtleties that are virtually impossible to put across in a simple almost one-dimensional way both in a public face-to-face situation and at a public meeting. This is what I'm saying: I'm not debating the things we've all done up to now, like leafletting, having a stall here and there, and generally publicising the opposition to ID CARDS. I'm trying to grapple with the question of how to put across to the public that the passport thing is just as dangerous as the ID cards would have been (in terms of the database) without the advantages on our side of 'issues'we can make something of, like the government's former lying claims that the cards would have prevented terrorism, illegal immigration, identity fraud,and their desire to number and tag us all like criminals, plus the huge cost of the things. One also now has to counter a possibly large body of opinion which feels that the 'new' passport is a good idea - because (unstated) it will help to prevent terrorism, illegals, fraud, blah,blah,blah!. This is how subtle the government is. We have to deal with the new game. How?
    Judith Chisholm, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The card was always the McGuffin. It's not the card that's the problem, it's the register. When people find out about the register, that's when the penny drops. As long as we keep educating and informing and countering the hype and the myths, the resistance will keep growing.

    Incidentally I've had a patronising and propagandising letter from the Home Office trying to justify the ID database on the basis of the ICAO biometrics requirements. I've written back pointing out the elementary nature of their confusion...
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The important things is to be getting the word out - on stalls, in the media etc.
    The government depends on people (including their backbench MPs) not being informed.
    The beauty of what we have done in Brighton & Hove is that the network of people a small number of us have organised is now organising and informing others.
    The government's strategy *looks* clever, but is undermined by the information that's out there, even on a NO2ID leaflet or the wording of the petition.
    Our experience on the streets of Brighton & Hove is that the opposition is around the principle not the detail.
    Andy Player, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In yesterday’s Guardian there was a further interesting article from Simon Davies, director of Privacy International and one of the authors of the recent LSE Identity Project Report. Here is an extract:

    “The current proposals for identity cards provide a sobering illustration of parliamentary malaise. Many Labour MPs voted originally for the identity cards bill despite grave misgivings. They warned the whips that the legislation was deeply flawed. The government promised the anxious MPs that the bill would receive a robust and thorough assessment if they voted for it in second reading. Yet when the bill went to committee after the vote, not one of the 200 or so opposition amendments was accepted. Debate was guillotined as the government steamrollered the bill through the committee.

    This sad episode is the latest event in a litany of deception and secrecy surrounding the proposals. David Blunkett, as home secretary, refused point blank to answer the home affairs committee's questions on the scheme's cost.”

    For the complete article, go to:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/...
  • I see that it has been announced that anyone who has to go through a criminal records check, such as teachers or applicants for firearms certificates, may be compelled to have an ID card years before anyone else.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,...

    As a legal firearms owner this just stiffens my resove to fight against ID cards. I have no objection to proving my identity to acquire firearms and ammunition, that is what my firearms certificate is for, but I fundamentally object to having to pay for additional unneeded documentation and having my firearms ownership linked to a general audit trail of my activities in the National Identity Register.

    I am also very concerned indeed about the security implications of this. Providing a single - and inevitably hackable - register of where all the guns are in the UK is not a sensible idea for any government that actually cares about preserving public safety. But then if the government did care about such a thing, it would be spending the £18 billion earmarked for ID cards on security measures that might actually make a difference against crime and terrorism.
    Stephen Thomas, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ...or perhaps on hospitals and schools?
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I will no more sign up to a supermarket card than I would an ID card simply because I value my individual freedom and privacy. Fear is the engine behind this planned legislation and should be opposed at all costs. The terrorists need do nothing when we terrorize ourselves like this.
    Paul Attmere, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Paul, 'Fear' is the right word, it has been used since the beginning of oppression. Once we stop being afraid, the likes of Tony Bliar will not know where to go. I am still seathing at the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, because people like me knew straight away why he was gunned down, to put fear in all of us who look dark. But take heart, for all it takes is someone brave enough to hightlight in Metro today the true circumstances of how this young lad died, even showing the picture of his body which shows denim and nothing else.

    So Paul, like me, you have shed the skin of fear off your back. That is equal to shedding off those chains of slavery. For even then, they had to chain other human beings so as to frighten them. Nobody has a right to frighten you, not with ID cards or store cards for that matter. For if our so called protective police force can do what they did to Jean, what good is it to carry a card, for they will shoot first before they check your identity. Too late, the bullet is in, you are dead, gone. For that reason, and many other reasons, I will not be forced to have something that does not save me from being shot by police or terrorists.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thirty pledge signatories living in and around Cambridge have jointly written this letter to our local paper, the Cambridge Evening News:

    http://tinyurl.com/c95uz

    Why not try writing to your local paper about signing the pledge? It's an easy way of advertising the pledge to tens of thousands of people. Remember to keep it short (papers are more likely to publish letters under 250 words). Feel free to borrow any text from our letter that you like.

    Good luck!
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Cambridge Evening News has now published our letter (see above) ... and written an article about it ... and put it on the front page of the paper today. See:

    http://www.no2id.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php...

    Not bad for a couple of hours' work! Why not write a letter to your local paper, and help recruit a few more pledge signatories in your area?
    Andrew Watson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • That's a really impressive result - can I suggest you put all the details on the other pledge as well (resist) ? The comments on there are a little distorted to the extreme end of the scale and this is exactly the type of debate needed.
    (I would put it up there myself but I had nothing to do with it and would feel entirely fraudulent!)

    Well done!
    Ellen, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • They have ID Card in France, does that make it safer ? (tips: NO) !
    Jerry GOULET, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A thought occurs to me: earlier this evening, I shaved off the beard & moustache I've had for about 3 years. If the cards had been in existence already, would this mean that, a) I would be breaking the law by no longer looking like my card, and/or b) would have to pay £93+ to get a new card?
    If either is the case, then this is the sort of absurdity we could have a lot of fun putting before the public as an example of how cuckoo this scheme is!
  • On a similar note, I'm moving house, again next week. Only there is no overlap between the two tenancy agreements so I'm on a sofa for a couple of weeks. This happened to me three times last year so for the last two years I've had 7 changes of address. It really does seem to be a massively intrusive waste of my time to register all of these addresses with the government, particularly when some of them only apply for a few weeks. Surely this is the nadir of crushingly mindless, grindingly pointless bureacracy. Seems more like the former USSR than any decent government.
    Rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ... Except in the USSR the state would pay for it...
  • "for the last two years I've had 7 changes of address. It really does seem to be a massively intrusive waste of my time to register all of these addresses with the government, particularly when some of them only apply for a few weeks."

    I suspect some of the Whitehall policy wonks find it hard to understand that not everyone lives what you might call a "settled" lifestyle, and that the idea of having to shift home and workplace fairly often, for all sorts of entirely legitimate reasons, is outside their experience. Just like they probably find it hard to imagine the very many other ways in which this stupid legislation will make real people's lives difficult, because they themselves will be largely insulated from its effects.
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I suppose this is where the stupid ID card system fails. I wonder how many homelss people there are in this country? How is the Government going to bag an tag them all?

    Surely a responsible Government should ensure it has no homeless people before it decides to go and waste vast sums of money on some crazy id scheme.

    Perhaps the Government has already had a discussion on how to deal with the homeless and the solution will be one as used in some tin pot banana republic. They just disappear!

    I suppose the other alternative is that anyone who has no card is a non-person so wont be able to survive, especially if in the not too distant future and with a bit of mission creep we end up with a cashless society.
  • "... Except in the USSR the state would pay for it..."

    When are people going to realise that the public fund the state! Thus it doesn't matter what way they come up with to pay for it, the people will foot the bill at the end of the day.

    All the cost for nil benefit and potential abuse of the powers it gives to the state in the future.

    Think Hitler, think Stalin and don't be so naive to think that could never happen in Britain. The odds are it will happen one day, maybe to your kids if not you.

    The State is supposed to serve us, not the other way round!
  • Tink you're preaching to the converted here Matt. It's the 59,000,000 sheep we need to get the message to.

    The number of people I've spoken to who have no opinion is sickening. The number that said they didn't vote last time round is untrue. Their reason: "My vote doesn't make any difference". grrrrrrr Don't get me started!
  • How true Matt, we fund everything, the wars, Tony Blair's holidays and all his travels, plus the ID cards! Take a day like today for instance, your money has paid for Tony Blair to go to China to negotiate big business for big companies. It can be debated for whose benefit this trip is, but we paid for it. In America, George Bush in now supposedly mopping up the debris of drowned bodies, whilst the US marine jets have just bombed 2 Iraq bridges. This is the sort of world leadership that we have, and if you think ID cards are not one way of implementing dictatorship, then I am afraid, nothing else will convience you. It is obvious to some of us that if we as funders of all this world rubbish that we see today do not do anything about it, we will wake up one day in Hitler/Stalin's leadership. Too late then to do anything!
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "59,000,000 sheep", Duane? Latest polls show fewer than 50% now willing to go along with ID cards. So what's happened? Did 30 million "sheep" get an emergency delivery of wolves' clothing?

    Public opinion is waking up to what this scheme will mean for all of us, and the more we can all spread the word, the more opposition will grow. If I thought most of my fellow Britons were "sheep" who can't think for themselves, I wouldn't bother.
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If Blair persists with his fascist folly, it will be interesting to see how he tries to enforce it. I suspect he'll use a financial hammer (so helping offset the ludicrous cost of such a lamentable system), and perhaps deny basic rights to health and benefits to anyone without a card.
    What a tattered and tawdry legacy for a Prime Minister who's had eight years to create a just, honest and fair society. He has instead split the nation, shown scant respect for democracy, and in the end, much as the proverbial emperor, has clothed himself in indecent delusion. My bitter regret is that I voted for him in 1997...
    luke albarin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Luke,

    I have exactly the same regret. I voted this conservative in liberal clothing in thinking he would make a difference and he has, for the worse.

    What has changed? As far as I can tell not much. Im still paying for eye tests, I can't go to the dentist, well not on the NHS and I refuse to go private. Why should I pay for a service I'm already paying through the nose for.

    It also amused me to see that this government could find £3bn+ to fund a war. A war that need not have happened, a war that the people of this country didn't want to get involved with.

    As for a our liberties they're being erroded daily. I believe that the ID card farce is yet another stealth tax and a job creation scheme. How many more public servants will it need keep the whole scheme up and running? More drones telling you that you can't do something because the computer is down or the details on your card are incorrect.

    John Smith must be turning in his grave.

    Duane
  • Luke & Duane

    Your lament is mine for I had a choice of Labour or Conservatives - voted neither, but to make matters worse, did nothing about my voting opportunity (pure ignorance). Conservatives rule the roost now in my area, but check what Charles Clarke is campaigning on, 'Erosion of civil rights by Tony Blair!' If you have never seen a wolf wearing a sheep's skin, you have an opportunity now.

    On the ID issue, we must never fool ourselves that Tony Blair is not capable of implementing them. This is a man who suffers with major delusions of grandeur. He believes in his mind that his leadership epitomises real democracy. In Metro today, he is quoted as a democratic leader warning China under the heading 'China needs democracy, warns Blair'.

    For my part, I am going to be out leafleting streets in my area with the NO2ID leaflets.

    Let us all get going to recruit more people so that they also see this lunacy that petrifies some of us.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Did anyone see the small article in the Indy Tuesday (6 Sep) saying smiling was going to be banned on passport photos? Apparently the fantastically-sophisticated software can't recognize a grinning face. Gets better, doesn't it?
    Cathi, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Cathi wrote;

    "Apparently the fantastically-sophisticated software can't recognize a grinning face."

    Well, that's Mr. Tony's new passport knackered then :)
    Tez Burke, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If its not bad enough, imagine if 1 million identities had been wiped

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/09/...
    Dave B, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • www.Irefuse.org the original arm chair ID protest.
  • http://www.silicon.com/research/specialr... <<-- ID card roadshow.

    I see they're not giving a list of venues and dates so we can't turn up and cause a stink.
  • Its sounding like that episode of "Absolute Power" with the DemocraBUS.

    http://www.tv.com/absolute-power/the-hou...

    They want to be SEEN to involving the public , but they dont actually WANT to involve the public.
    Dave, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This has been a brilliant day for NO2ID in Scotland. For today the Home Office’s ‘biometric information campaign’ visited the Gyle Shopping Centre in Edinburgh, and NO2ID was there to give them a real Scottish welcome. Despite the Home Office’s strenuous efforts to keep the arrangements for the roadshows secret we managed to find out about ours - at the very last minute! As a result, therefore, there were only three NO2ID supporters present. However, this was easily enough for us to parade our large NO2ID banner around the shopping centre - and most vitally, during the TV and press briefings. We were also able to give interviews for TV, radio and the press.

    Finally, we had a lengthy sit-down discussion with Andy Burnham MP, the Home Office Minister in charge of introducing ID cards, and we were able to leave him in no doubt of the NO2ID case and the strength of people’s feelings in Scotland about the issues. Maybe like the poll tax, they should try rolling out ID cards up here in Scotland first ... we’d be ready for them once again!

    An amusing footnote to the day ...
    Of all the places in Scotland that the Home Office could have chosen for their roadshow, they settled on a place called ‘the Gyle’. Of course, the other spelling ‘guile’, means deceit, cunning, deception and duplicity. Sounds like they chose well then!
  • Wonderful! Just watched the Scottish news and saw our intrepid three displaying the banner prominently.

    Well said, Geraint - so proud of how concisely you managed to get a few succint points into such a short space of time!!!

    Can you believe how gullible some of the "people in the street are"?
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • People have fought for our freedom in several wars in recent history. I will not be branded, monitored and controlled in what is supposed to be a free society. Sign the pledge now to help ensure ID cards are not brought in under the cloud and hype of terrorism.
  • ‘Big Brother roadshow signals new era’

    That was the banner headline which appeared at the top of the readers’ letters page of yesterday’s Edinburgh Evening News, providing an appropriate commemoration of the Home Office’s biometric roadshow’s Scottish trip. The paper also prominently displayed two letters critical of the roadshow, which you can read at:

    http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=...
  • I know this is a little off topic but it does have some bearing on where we're going.

    I would like to mention the name of Sylvia Hardy of Exeter in dispatches. For those of you who don't know, Sylvia is a pensioner who has taken a stand against paying any more than the rate of inflation on her council tax. Today she is in court and faces 7 days imprisonment for refusing to pay £53.

    Can we all just spare a moment's thought for Sylvia and wish her well in her fight.

    Sylvia Hardy a refusenik with a different cause but a refusenik all the same.
  • I tried again tonight using a different password to log in to make a contribution aboutI.D.cards and once again I was told I had not given the correct information. Why are you making it so difficult?
    P.A.Mela, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • P.A.,

    You obviously succeeded in sorting out your password problem, given that your comment appears above.

    PledgeBank is a service provided by mySociety, not NO2ID - if you have any technical queries, you can contact them directly via team@pledgebank.com

    I can only assume that PledgeBank have instituted some sort of basic e-mail verification process to cut down on comment spam, etc. Sorry for any inconvenience.
  • Has anyone else given any thought as to why all banks were required to use chip and pin by 2004 - it was certainly not for improved security - now anyone can know your PIN number and such encryption on the smart chips has been cracked long ago.
    http://prisonplanet.com/Pages/Oct05/0410...

    Cashless society anyone? Fancy getting used to it...gearing us all up for what is likely to become a growing trend in our future daily lives.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/oct...

    Of course a cashless society means no Freedom or Privacy - it can only result in total enslavement.

    The global elite have had this planned for decades. Don't surrender your freedom to anyone.

    Just imagine what will be added to your biometric ID card if you submit - all health records, shopping habbits, interests, career history - everything all of your digital ID and life will be in one place for many organisations, corporations to access when they desire, in the future your DNA would also be added to their databases, then to make things more simple they would suggest you having a chip implanted to make it easier and more convenient for us all since we can't possibly lose an implanted chip.

    You Shape Our Future! People power still rules - USE IT!
    PNAC, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks PNAC. I know some people will think your imagination is running wild, but believe me you have hit the nail on the head. Why are we complicating our lives with these biometrics? I for one, am for an easy life, and this involves keeping myself to myself if I choose to. However, with these IDs everything becomes public knowledge. Sadly, it is not public only to those who have your interest at heart. It only benefits the greedy conglomerates and the evil like the governments that we see today who will certainly use their state power to oppress those who object to their views on neo-liberal policies and wars.

    To me, putting a stop to all this ID nonsense is a do or die exercise. After the ID biometric chip, what else will they do but chip us as PNAC rightfully forsees? Even chipped cattle kick and scream before they are slaughtered, but by then it is too late for them. Therefore, better kick now PNAC before they chip us. I am doing exactly that, not by just signing this pledge, but by telling everybody about what these ID cards are intended for. Some people are passive, others disagree, but overall people get to analyse this whole scam themselves, which is something they may not have done had I not spoken to them. This is a small fight, however, if done by over 11,000 people who have signed this pledge it is the answer to our problems!
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Living on the continent, I know what ID cards are. I never want to see them in the UK.
    Ian Graham, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My issue isn't with gaining an I.D. card, as I have nothing to hide. My issue is with having to pay a ridiculas amount of money, on top of my taxes i might add, to gain one. All this while saying they are compulsory.... I for one cannot afford to pay the kind of money they're asking for, and i'm sure there's a hell of a lot more people out there in the same boat.

    If they make it compulsory, they make it free. End of.
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Others are starting to realise that ID cards are just a great white elephant. Todays silicon.com article show a huge slump of ID card support by business directors --> http://www.silicon.com/publicsector/0,38...
  • The government keep changing the "selling points" for this effort. So either the real reasons are secret, or the government does not really know why they are doing it. In either case, the cost is not justified. Why should my existence in this society be linked to an external piece of technology? Why should I lose the right to venture outside without this piece of plastic?
    Adam Nealis, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • My point exactly Adam. When a government as renowed for intelligence and honesty as ours gets itself so confused you wonder what next. If your suspicions that the government might have something to hide is to go by, I wonder who needs to be chipped and tagged with an ID card?
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • James Sweet said:
    "My issue isn't with gaining an I.D. card, as I have nothing to hide.
    ...
    If they make it compulsory, they make it free. End of."

    Careful, James! You may believe that the present Government are being perfectly reasonable in their wish for. Fine. But what about the next Government? And the one after that?

    You may accuse me of being overly pessimistic, but we need to start considering these things NOW! Remember that in 1930 a little-known party known as the 'National Socialist German Worker’s Party' started their rise to power - that could NEVER happen again, could it? Small steps, my friend, small steps...

    It's not a question of the price of this card - it's a question of whether it's the civilised, the moral, basically the RIGHT thing to do!

    Remember that the Government are not the leaders of our country, they are it's administrators - they work FOR us. We need to hold that thought dear when considering any of their pronouncements! :)
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • CORRECTION [para 2]:

    "You may believe that the present Government are being perfectly reasonable in their requests."

    Sorry about that - got a bit carried away! ;)
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Unfortunately there are many people out there in which an I.D. card would be ideal. Common scum you could say, people who need a close eye kept on them at all times.

    But then there are many decent people out there too. Its a sad world we live in. As Albert Einstein would say "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil,
    but because of those who look on and do nothing "
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Stuart H's 14:58 comment.

    The first thing you do to get people to fall in line is tell them they are under attack. This is straight out of the Hitler/Goebbels propaganda manual.

    Look what George Bush said last week about the number of Al Qiada attacks the US government had supposidly thwarted.

    Ladies and gentlemen we are under attack but this attack is coming from within. We are being attacked by those that we put in power to serve us.
  • Re. James Sweet's comment at 15:07

    There are some problem people out there, but for a society to use an ID card scheme to solve the problems CAUSED by that very society (I'm thinking poor education, poor health support, very poor benefits system, to name but a few) is frankly immoral.

    Einstein's point is perfectly sound, but I'm sure he was referring to doing what is RIGHT, as opposed to simply doing ANYTHING!

    I haven't studied this (and may be proven wrong) but was he referring to 'Fellow Travellers'?
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "If they make it compulsory, they make it free. End of."

    James, there's no way it can be "free", as in "not costing us anything". Either the costs come directly from our pockets or they come from our taxes - either way, we pay.

    I thought Nick Cohen put it quite well in the Observer at the weekend:

    "On identity cards, intellectual clarity would demand that Mr Clarke begins: 'We're so worried by crime, terrorism and illegal immigration that we want to impose a new law-and-order tax on the public. Our estimate is it will raise £6 billion. Others say £18bn. Let's split the difference and call it £12bn. OK. Now we won't spend it on capturing criminals, terrorists and illegal immigrants. That would be mad. Rather than wasting money on new police officers, we will force people who aren't criminals, terrorists and illegal immigrants to carry an expensive piece of plastic.'

    "Does it work for you? Me neither.'"
    Eleanor Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Re. Duane Phillips at 15:14

    Absolutely - Orwell may have mentioned something similar too... :)
    Stuart H, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to James Sweet:

    We stand on the edge of a very large precipice.

    Fortunately those of us on here are looking on and doing something while those in Westminster plot their evil.

    I've been thinking about the whole refuse pledge over the last couple of weeks.

    After that group up in Scotland got arrested for going with intent to disturb the peace when the ID card information wagon came to town, they were photographed, fingerprinted and had DNA samples taken. They are now reregistered for all eternity on the PNC.

    How do we fight against that? We all turn up at a registration centre to support our fellow refuseniks and instantly all get arrested for disturbing the peace. At this point the boys in blue then take DNA samples, finger prints and photos so they've got us anyway.

    Is the other alternative that we just disappear into the woodwork? In which case has anyone any idea to where this woodwork is?
  • I appreciate all the feedback and the more I read, the angrier i get. Yet the beedle and endle is, as the world slowly becomes even more digitalised with the advancements in computing, the more inevitable the outcome. Which in this case is that one day, I.D. cards will be compulsory.

    The world is changing fast and with digitalisation, freewill is slowy becoming a thing of the past.

    And we all know it. We can only hold out for so long.
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • James, I have been angry against the system for too long. Freewill is God given, so how can we lose it? It is reassuring that you are also just beginning to get angry. The secret is to just get as many people as possible to get angry and bob is your uncle.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • James, you say "as the world slowly becomes even more digitalised with the advancements in computing, the more inevitable the outcome. Which in this case is that one day, I.D. cards will be
    compulsory."

    I understand that many people feel that this "progress" is inevitable but I say:

    The world will only become what the people in the world allow it to become!
    Pat Crawford, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Florence: Bob is not entitled to be an uncle unless he has produced his notional identity card!
    Marek, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I shall refuse to carry, show or even aknowledge the ID card system. People fought, and died, that we might live in a society free from state intervention. We must NEVER forget what has been done to protect us from those that would harm us. It is time that we demonstrated to this "government" that they cannot rule by diktat. Time to stand up and be counted and refuse the setting-up of a police state. To give up what we pride ourselves in would make us just like the people we are fighting against.
    "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" (Benjamin Franklin)
    James Nye, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Thanks Marek, for how can he be an uncle without knowing himself?
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I lived in Denmark for 10 years. They have loads of data on a central database and everyone has an i.d card. I didn't experience any problems living with that sceme. It just meant that is was a little easier getting things done.

    Denmark is a liberal and open society. By and large, their i.d cards aren't seen as a tool of an oppressor, but rather, a pragmatic tool for getting things done.

    I haven't yet made up my mind about this topic, but I am in favour of a full and open debate. Under the 'bourgeois democracy' democracy is merely a spectator sport.
    Simon Johnson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • With more and more people making digital transactions i.e. using Plastic instead of Cash, the easier its making it for the government to track you down.

    Also here are a few scary facts:

    Mobile phone companys can track you down to within 20meters by triangulating your possition using mobile phone masts.

    Mobile phone companys can ring into your phone and listen in to whats going without you even knowing.

    And the government has these at there full disposal. We're trapped in more ways than you know. I'm completely against National I.D. Cards but will it really make that much of a difference? Appart from the cost I mean.
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "Mobile phone companys can ring into your phone and listen in to whats going without you even knowing."

    No they can't. That's an urban myth.
  • No but they can still triangulate your position with the phone switched off (this only applies to the newer models of mobile).
  • If the phone is switched off (not just on standby etc) they can't do anything at all, because there's no power.

    If the phone is on and pinging local stations then they know where you are, certainly, otherwise they wouldn't be able to send you information. But let's not compare apples to oranges here. It's easy to turn a phone off or remove the battery, it's not yet compulsory to have one and the information isn't automatically tied into government databases like that from an ID card would be. And you can always buy a PAYG SIM from some guy on a market stall that's not tied to you at all.
  • I'm all for ID cards, bring them on.
    Loads of work for IT people (i.e. me)
    paul, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "No they can't. That's an urban myth."

    Its actually not, I was looking on a web site that sells spy gadgets and you can buy a mobile phone to give to a friend, and ring in and listen to whats going on without the phone showing a trace.

    Highly illegal of course but whats to say newer models can't do the same thing?
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I see Charles Clarke is doing a special offer on ID cards £30 for people who dont have a passport. What a bargain!!

    How about I don't want one so I'll save my £30. Thanks anyway Charlie for your very kind offer.
  • Well you can always give somebody a bugged phone... best not to accept any free mobiles from people with dark glasses and earpieces.

    However unless every phone manufacturer from Korea to Sweden has decided to let any government bug their phones by default, and managed to keep this secret from every technician in the world, I think you're pretty safe.
  • LOL fridgemagnet, very good point. But if Bill Gates managed to bug his software to allow complete system domination i.e. the whole worm fiasco, then i'm sure it wouldn't be hard for phone companys to discretely bug there phone software too.

    Yes I am just being anal but it is possible. I've come to relise anythings possible in this day and age if you have the right determination.

    Saying that... This pledge might actually work :D
    James Sweet, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am waiting for TB&Co to give me a good reason why I should carry an ID card. The card itself will cost who knows how much, but the real problem is the database which will be one step short of sticking a microchip in everyboby!
    jonathan, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • As a boring law-abiding citizen, I hope I shall have the courage to protest when ordered to come forth to hand over my life history. I shall smile sweetly and say "I'd rather not". Then turn and walk away and see where I go from there. I have nothing to hide, but I am a very private person and I do not wish to be forced into a position whereby I have to hand over a ID card with personal details on for all and sundry to pass judgement on, to enable me to live what I consider, my normal life. I have never had a problem in proving who I am. But slowly and very surely this Government is making certain I will have a problem unless I submit myself to what I shall consider to be criminal'rape'. I shall lose all respect for whoever does this to me.
    Such is the determination of the Home Office to bring these cards into being, I am beginning to wonder what THEY have to hide. And if they have nothing to hide why then do they fear healthy opposition to them. The lenngth they are going to suppress this opposition is more than worrying, its frightening.
    P.A.Mela., 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nice quote I came across:

    "When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away."

    - Robert Heinlein

    (Well maybe 'nice' was the wrong word.)
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Looking at all the comments, I feel people are missing a key point. The compulsory use of ID cards, even drivers licences, as proof of identity indicates that the Government no longer trusts its citizens- there is a fundamental breakdown in the relationship between the state and individual, where the State assumes that it now knows best and that you are not to be trusted. History has shown that the more powerful and unresponsive the state is, the more abuses against non-compliant individuals and groups.

    Only through the political process, refusal pledges and a "bloody minded" opposition to providing requests for ID will the process be stemmed.

    Having recently migrated from Australia for work purposes, i will oppose the ID card and if it comes in, i will move again...

    But where?
    Ashley Schofield, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Clearly the Government is starting to believe it's own lies. They are now obsessed with tracking everyone and reducing our rights. they don't trust us, we should not trust them!

    Look at ID cards, satellite road charging and being held without trial for 3 months. Liberty is slowly being eroded away and who's fault is it? Ours of course! We still have a democracy (although if Blair get's his way not much longer)and we could have done something about it in May. But we voted New Labour in again and gave Blair a mandate to do as he pleases.

    If you don't like what the Government is doing, vote against them. Vote for a party who will respect your freedom. Not use scare tactics to get what it wants. We need to wake up now, before it is too late!
    Andrew Clure, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The New Labour parliamentary sheep, blindly following Blair to hell and back are still in a mind to ignore the news from their home fronts: that constituency offices and activists are leaving in droves.

    Not just over the utterly illiberal ID cards that change the relationship between citizens and elite, the people and state, but the other draconian moves being mooted ATM.

    Claire Short, on Daily Politics today said "I haven't left Labour...YET".

    As Andrew Clure says, everyone needs to wake up before it is too late and we live in a police state.

    There is no point to ID cards if they are not to be carried and presented on demand. This is what will happen if Blair et al get the legislation through. Having travelled through countries where ID cards need to be shown at every stage of a journey, ID cards create a pervasive sense of fear in the countrymen.

    Say no to ID cards, and the National Identity Register: they are the constructs of control, not to protect us from boogymen.
    janie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I wonder what will happen when I refuse to register for a biometric ID card or passport. Some have said Tony Bliar is s using his EU presidency to force all of Europe to have Biometric ID cards and passports for the USA. We know the USA now requires biometric ID to go into the US and also uses it at many airports and supermarkets where only several service checkouts exist - will the same happen to us with Tesco? Don't use self service checkouts.

    Are we being forced to have a cashless scociety...me thinks so. If we accept biometric ID cards we are one step away from accepting the implantable chip - ready to be a slave yet?

    When I refuse to have biometric ID then I hope several other million will be joining me. I won't submit to Nazi laws or Nazi Tyrannical Governments. They will have to kill me - I won't ever surrender Free Will.

    FEAR NOT; soon we will have lost the Freedom to publish our own words on the internet once Internet 2 has been introdued to the mainstream - there will no no alternative then.

    Freedom has almost been shredded completely - we have very little privacy left - we allow less than 3% to dictate to us - the same ones who funded WW2 and the same ones who profit from poison and war. The same ones who want to declare martial law with our will to accept it and submit! Yes they really do want us to surrender all of our liberty to these sick terrorists the same ones who killed Princess Diana - the same ones who bomb London and make out suicide bombers were involved. The same ones who deny any investigations. Ah yes they also killed Dr David Kelly microbiologists remember?!

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/oct...

    http://prisonplanet.com/articles/october...

    The NSA has monitored all electronic communications globally for decades, now operating from the UK in Yorkshire - why not go and visit the RAF base they use - you can protest like Germany did until they f.uck off back to the USA. But they didn't they came to America's Bitch - the UK. It is actually illegal under EU law the NSA operating in Europe and evesdropping on all of our electronic communications.

    We know who the real terrorists are.

    http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/...

    Many people seriously need to be re-educated on the facts and real History lessons - not the fairytales they like to make us all believe in!

    We're all ready for the TRUTH - NOT deception!

    Let the PNAC ROLL:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for...

    So who wont the war last time around? Did we really win? I guess the Nazi pharmaceutical cartels really did have a plan to return post WW2 (like historians have said and proved with documentation) and look they are so powerful now - some of the same Nazis who ran concentrations camps now genetically mutate/manipulate our food.
  • janie said:

    There is no point to ID cards if they are not to be carried and presented on demand. This is what will happen if Blair et al get the legislation through. Having travelled through countries where ID cards need to be shown at every stage of a journey, ID cards create a pervasive sense of fear in the countrymen.

    __________________________________________

    I can tell you that U.S. troops were ordered to shoot anyone in certain Iraqi cities if they failed to show ID. Now you may think it is unlikely this would ever happen in the UK (I agree for the time being since most police are unarmed , and not willing to shoot innocent people? Not so true eh, shoot to kill policy as we all know). We are the worlds number second that exports WMD to the rest of the world! And it is easy to guess which country # 1 is on this list.

    Do you think banking institutions in the UK will force us to show biometric ID or use biometrics when using ATM machines like they have in some countries for so called security reasons (where people still have ID theft and thumbs chopped of by thiefs now) (I bet certain US and European elite would like that) for existing services we use?

    I guess banks will follow orders since they make so much from us, and most of us receive funds into our bank accounts which means many will have no say or choice. ENSLAVED?! to this sad dark evil grid/system.

    No world can operate functionally when all is centralised and consolidated.
  • I have a system in place which protects me from ID theft, requires no central databases of biometrics, costs pennies yet can help identify the bad guys.

    To find out how in Google type - taking identity fraud in hand. (From BBC Radio 4 MoneyBox)

    Why, when using the above system I would ever need an ID Card I will never know.
    Jamie Jamieson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • When the government turns fascist, EVERYBODY has EVERYTHING to hide. What would Winston Churchill think of the proposed ID schemes being proposed not only in the U.K., but around the world as well? He recognized that ID cards and forcing everyone to show their papers on demand was a tool by the fascists to control people, effectively making them slaves to a tyrannical state, and when World War II was over, he wanted to make sure that England would never have to suffer under the tools of oppression that the Nazis used in the territories they conquered to keep track of everyone they considered an enemy. When a fascist government decides to name you an enemy of the state, they want to know where your assets are so they can seize them, and they want to know where you are so they can cage you and make you their slave. The facts don't matter when someone in a fascist government decides to declare you an enemy of the state, for whatever reason. ("Any excuse will suit a tyrant.")
    And perhaps the biggest insult of all is that this won't do a thing to stop the "terrorists" (really Islam's foot soldiers carrying out the direct orders of the Islamic religious leadership, which is its command and control). Oh, and all the fabricated "intelligence" used to justify going to war in Iraq (making weapons of mass destruction, funding, arming, training, and deploying terrorists) turns out to have been true, just not for Iraq. They got the last letter wrong. That's a heck of a spelling mistake.
    Top Cat, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Top Cat,
    Personally, I have still got nothing to hide despite the government thinking that everybody in the world is hiding something from them. This is because what my neighbour and everybody else including TB and his croonies, do not know about me is because it has nothing to do with them or anybody else for that matter, kind of like what is called 'bedroom talk' really.
    What buffles me however is how the government is so keen to devulge certain issues over the others. H5N1 'deadly' parrot flu for a start. Tony Blair has even gone public that he will buy vaccinations for all in the UK should a need arise. Thank you TB, but I am sure that overlooks the real concerns of the British population at this very moment. This bird flu has only killed 1 parrot, terrorism has and is still killing old and young on daily basis. Seems like someone is getting his priorities wrong here. Stop terrorising people both abroad and in the UK TB, then we can worry about H5N1.The ID cards for a start will cost maybe even more that the vaccines for this H5N1, and what purpose do they serve apart from what Top Cat has rightly said.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • To me the whole ID card issue is being used as a sticking plaster to cure bubonic plague. You've covered up the sores but the disease is still remains. Cure the cause of terrorism not the symptoms.

    Tony Blair stop siding with the US in trying to push western ideals on countries that do not wish to adhear to them. Infact just stop siding with the US. George Bush and friends are nothing but greedy corrupt bigots that will bring the whole world to environmental and ecconomic collapse.
  • Someone mentioned that ID cards exist in Denmark. Indeed they do. The pragmatic approach there comes from the fact that they are are a tool, coupled with rights of privacy and transparency that are constitutionally protected for its citizens. The boundaries of the state's power are explicitly laid out.

    In the UK, our rights are protected by the common law, with no explicit constitutional protection. We are therefore at the whim of the executive, who can steamroller legislation through with the bare minimum of support, with the slimmest of majorities in the commons. Worse, this parlaiment cannot proscribe future ones from extending or introducing legislation (Maastricht was slightly different, being the result of a treaty obligation). So it's entirely possible for the next parliament to make an ID compulsory and to introduce powers to stop and produce. The fact that the ID framework is in place makes it even easier to do so.

    The whole proposal does change the relationship between the individual and the state; suddenly, we have become the property of the state and it is no longer an instrument of the people: how can it be when it determines who the people actually are?

    So why do Bliar (not a misprint) and the Government want this system? In the end, it is all about control.
  • with regard to the mobile phones, when the UK network went digital GCHQ developed the digital encoding algorithm so that they could still listen in on mobile phone calls.

    I didnt vote for a govmt to rule over us, I voted for a govmt to serve us, so start serving Tony and scrap this pointless ID scheme now.
    Iain Lippitt, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I am not too bothered whether we have to have them or not- just so long as I don't have to pay for one, and we can be assured they cannot be 'cloned'.

    In response to some of the previous posts about this government being 'anti asylum seekers' - Let's face it, any one of us would welcome a young family fleeing persecution - I personally would try my best to help them.

    The welfare state in Britain was set up a few decades ago to give the minority of unfortunate UK residents who, following a couple of wars, and a recession or two, were unable to earn a living as they were out of work. It ensured that they could receive medical care where necessary, get housed, and receive a modest income so that they could survive.

    This wonderful concept has since been abused somewhat, even by our own people - but never to the extent that it is today.... As I said before, no body could resent a young family, or an elderly couple fleeing a torturous regime - we would welcome them with open arms - but when whole container loads arrive from Eastern Europe, having passed through 3 or 4 other European countries where they could have claimed political asylum - it should be fairly bloody obvious that all they are looking for is the free housing and hand-outs.

    I am sick to death of the do-gooders all crying out about this government being "anti-asylum" - This govenment has all but ruined out country and destroyed the NHS by being TOO ASYLUM FRIENDLY !!! - let alone being less.

    An already crippled NHS is haemorrhaging millions per month paying for aids treatments for Africans who have slipped into our country, pushing to the back of the queue elderly UK residents who have paid their national insurance all their lives and now need a hip replacement or some other surgery - it just doesn't seem fair to me !!!

    Maybe to some of you, prolonging the life of someone who has caught aids through promiscuity is top of the list - and maybe so if we had the money - but priority should really be given to the poor old buggers who paid for the whole infrastructure in the first place. Not forgetting of course, our own people in Zimbabwe - former UK Nationals, who are genuinely being persecuted by Mugabe- who are being refused asylum in the UK - how does that work ???

    Back to ID cards - If it stops benefit fraud, if it stops bogus asylum seekers slipping through - and if it stops just ONE hate-filled suicide bomber from killing one of ours - then bring it on...

    I have nothing to hide - if GCHQ want to know where I am, that's fine by me - why should anyone be against this ? - unless they are worried that their spouses will find they have been down the casino, or at a brothel, or at McDonald's when they said they had been to the Salad Bar.....

    Grow up you lot - the world is changing....

    If you want to be part of some demonstration, join Green Peace - they are doing some real good at the sharp end - nothing you protest about here will make any difference - and donating £10 a time to some legal fund will only make one person happy - Ugly old Cherie Blair - who will end up picking up the case as the UK's prime "Human Rights" QC - and where will that get us ?????

    All you people out there complaining about ID cards - the government already knows just about everything about you anyway - and have done for years - if you're on the electoral register there's more information about you there than will be stored on an ID card.

    If you want to get up in arms, how about the supermarkets - everytime you use your loyalty card they are building up a profile of what you buy, so they can target what junk mail to send you, and the banks every time you use your credit / debit card, and the BBC's TV license people, and Telewest / Sky Digital every time you flick a channel your digital or cable TV know what you are watching....

    The only thing ID cards will do is make it more difficult for fanatics to come into our country and bomb us to bits.

    Wake up and smell the coffee. Forget about the privacy argument because it's total rubbish. If you want to protest, then protest about the cost, because that's all there is to protest about.

    If it's free for an ID card, then I'm all for it - if Tony Blair can't tax the people living and working here illegally and not paying tax, then why don't we introduce additional VAT on luxury items, and reduce income tax ? - No tax on bread and milk, no tax on baby clothes, but a sliding scale, so you get to pay a bit extra on a portable TV, and some extra still if you want a 42" plasma screen - and if you want a Bentley Continental you pay 100% extra tax - it's fair - and then at least when you see some useless drugged-up gangster who never worked an honest day in his life, or paid a penny in tax, driving a new 7 series BMW, you would know he had paid at least some of his dues, even if the C.P.S. were to scarred to bang him up.

    Time for a revolution - time to stop being nice to nasty people and nasty to nice people ----> we should be nasty to nasty people, and nice to nice people - it's logic dudes.....

    Peace out.

    Matt
    Matt Wilkes, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Matt Wilkes:

    You raise a lot of interesting points. You say you would support ID cards in principle if they were free.

    1) Most obvious point first, then: the cards will *not* be free. Even if the explicit fee were waived, the money would just come from taxation. So either way, it will still mean that we, the public, pay for it. This cost can surely only be justified if there is some considerable, demonstrable advantage to having the scheme introduced, and I think it's fair to say that the government has not made a sufficient case for this.

    2) "If it stops benefit fraud...". I believe the general consensus is that it won't. Quoting Mr. Lilley at http://www.parliament.the-stationery-off..., an extract from a Commons debate on the issue: "Of the identified frauds and abuse in my Department only 5 per cent. involve abuse through misrepresentation of identity. The bulk of fraud and abuse is the misrepresentation of circumstances of people whose identity is not in doubt... [so the] gains which might come from a compulsory identity card would probably be very small." In other words, 95% of benefit fraud as it stands currently would be untouched by the introduction of an ID scheme. The ID scheme itself, on the other hand, will cost so much to set up and maintain that it would be literally decades before it paid for itself, and that's assuming that new forms of fraud don't come along in the meantime.

    3) "...if it stops bogus asylum seekers slipping through...". How can it? Obviously no one entering the country will have an ID card, and those intending (or claiming that they intend) to remain in the UK for three months or less will not be obliged to get one - so all a would-be illegal immigrant will have to do is to claim they're here on holiday, and then disappear into the woodwork, whereupon they'll undoubtedly find unscupulous employers willing to pay cash-in-hand for work, so the transactions never appear on any record.

    4) "...and if it stops just ONE hate-filled suicide bomber from killing one of ours...". NO2ID's own site answers this point well (http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/FAQ/probl...): "Despite evidence that the biggest threat of terrorism is home-grown, arguments that ID cards will ‘protect’ us from foreign-born terrorists continue to grow. This is simply not the case. Foreigners who are in the UK for three months or less will not have to carry one. Three months is plenty of time to arrive, plant a bomb and leave again. To those who are resident and will have to carry them, an ID card will deter them no less than, say, a bus pass."

    5) "...if you're on the electoral register there's more information about you there than will be stored on an ID card...". That simply isn't true. Quite apart from the biometric stuff and other personal information stored, the register will keep a log of every time you use the card to prove your identity, and so will end up with a very comprehensive list of your habits, preferences and lifestyle (far more comprehensive than is stored on any database at present). There are a number of problems with this: firstly, it's true that different government departments, businesses, banks etc do tend to know between them a great deal about individuals - but that's just it: they only have this relatively complete picture *between them*. No single organisation has the complete picture stored in one place, and this makes complete identity theft relatively hard. If the Register comes into being and ends up being hacked into (and you can't honestly think this won't happen, sooner or later), then identity thieves can get *all* of the information they need instantly, from one place. Secondly, while the government of today may be perfectly honest in its intentions not to sell information to businesses, for example, this is no guarantee that future governments will feel the same way - but by that time it would be too late, as there would already be complete dossiers on file of every citizen. In other words, allowing this scheme to go ahead is to gamble that all future governments will be at least as trustworthy with our personal information as this one purports to be.

    God, that was a lot longer than I expected. Sorry... and if anyone can help flesh out any details, or supply references to confirm (or disprove) any of this, I'd appreciate it.

    Nic
    Nic Shakeshaft, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I have "loyalty" cards, but I choose at random when (or if) I use it, so the picture of my buying habits is not complete, which makes it less useful.
    Other times I just pay in cash and don't use it at all. In both cases, the choice is mine.

    In any case, choosing not to use it means I can assert my right to privacy. It doesn't mean I have anything to hide (not really neccessary for an egg sandwich and a bottle of water) but that I just want some of my own personal space. In a supposedly free society, this is surely not too much to ask.

    Oh, and incidentally Matt Wilkes, given that Greenpeace may be seen as a subversive organisation, how long before ID would be used to track the movements of its members? So much for privacy.

    But then, if one has nothing to hide, why worry, eh?
    Darren Stephens, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Interesting to read the post by Matt Wilkes. I have to say he speaks at once with great authority but seems remarkably ill informed.
    Tim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A follow up from Tim,
    I think the right words to describe what Matt Wilkes's thesis is about is 'more confused than ill informed'. However,there are some good points, but writing such a contradictory dictate about one thing just makes the good points useless. The ID is bad news - we all agree on that. We pay for them, they are too invasive and unnecessary and they will not stop anything that Matt seems to think they will. Numerous people in Tony Bliar's own government have confirmed that.

    Finally, whether Cherie is ugly or not is not an issue here. So why not stick to the principle of an honest and open debate over an issue that is serious like the ID cards.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • For arguments in favour of ID cards, visit my website.

    I believe it is important for both sides of the argument to be heard. It is simply too easy to use the unpopularity of the current govt as an excuse to oppose ID cards.

    Remember the scheme will be voluntary until 2013 and then will require a vote in both houses of parliament to become compulsory.

    There will be another election before 2013, so the public have plenty of time to make their concerns heard if they are not happy with how ID cards are being implemented.
  • Neil said:-

    Remember the scheme will be voluntary until 2013 and then will require a vote in both houses of parliament to become compulsory.


    I would take issue with this. If you renew your passport or driving licence, or indeed get one of these for the first time you will be signed up for a card and signed onto the National Identity Register whether you want to be or not. The ability to drive or travel abroad are essentially being held to ransom. The government has also made noises about groups such as teachers being put on the ID register. Again this doesn't really strike me as particularly voluntary.

    The government has also made it clear that the ID card will be a "gateway" to public services. That is you will need a card to access services that until now we have been able to use without a card. Sounds more like coercion, again.

    Neil also said:- It is simply too easy to use the unpopularity of the current govt as an excuse to oppose ID cards.

    I would respond that the dogs breakfast of a bill is one of the reasons the government are becoming unpopular. I have become more inclined to wish for their replacement by another party the more I have learned about the details of this particular barmy scheme.

    Neil also said:
    There will be another election before 2013, so the public have plenty of time to make their concerns heard if they are not happy with how ID cards are being implemented.


    I dislike the "how ID cards are being implemented"! For a start I don't want ID cards implemented at all. By 2013 point billions of pounds of public money will have been spent on IT contractors. This will not be money well spent. Details of the overspends (and non-functioning in many cases) of several government IT projects make depressing reading. (for eg DVLA licence loss, Tax credits £2billion overspend, NHS database and the child support agency database)

    I am against the ID card and NIR on philosophical, practical, financial and technological grounds and I will not be complying with it if it should become law.
    rob, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The factural inaccuracies on ID cards by Matt wilkes's have been thoroughly covered by other commenters.

    Off topic, his statements about people with AIDS from Africa were offensive. As his comment had so much to respond to, it seems churlish to report him.

    But saying people with AIDS "caught
    (it) through promiscuity" is unforgivable in this day and age.

    <i>Dude</i>, this is not the 1980s. AIDS is not caught through promiscuous sexual activity in africa, but most frequently through marital sex. All those dying babies and kids are <i>so</i> promiscuous in your mind, I guess.

    Naive, deluded, ignorant, or simply the most stupid person I've heard in a long time?

    I dunno. But comments like that sure shine a light on your trenchently voiced understanding of ID cards.
    Janie, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to some of Neil Harding's points on his website, http://brightonregencylabourparty.blogsp..., among other arguments, I have written a post here:

    http://ngshake.blogspot.com/

    I would welcome any comments (either here, or as comments added to the post on that website), disagreements, etc, including any pointers on the accuracy of anything mentioned .

    May I also suggest that we move this debate to the 'refuse2' pledge, as it seems likely that most newcomers will go there, rather than here.

    Neil Harding: I would really appreciate it if you would respond with your views, as a lot of what I've said responds directly to your arguments.

    Many thanks in advance for any comments.
  • i am 68 years old and i for one will not take a id card
    fair enough if i was in gaol and had committed a crime
    at my age i care not what might happen or if i get into trouble for the same they can kiss my big a
    we are going back to the dark ages
    even with the council tax this id card idea stinks all say no to it i will
    b sommer, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • we are slowly going in to a police state. run by control freaks.this is not england as i know it.i dont feel comfotable her now.so many people are moving out and more imigrants move in.free speech has gone .i would like my bar code tattood on my forehead please mr blair. these people have money in these companys look at blunncett no wonder they want cards in big money for them .resist
    phil wilson, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I hate and despise the ID card notion, including those people who came up with this expensive useless and opressive scheme. But the worst bit is that Florence Durrant is my auntie and she is sitting next to me bullying me to sign on and get ten more people. Anyone who reads this please sign on for my sanity as this woman who is my auntie is a bully.
    mercy maponga, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The problem with Tony Blair, and it affects his whole cabinet, is that he is a weak man. It was evident by the way he managed to spread the anxiety & paranoia leading up to this country being committed to the US banditry in Iraq. I do not understand why he has not been impeached for telling lies to Parliament. Unfortunately a majority of people voted to put this pusillanimous nonentity back into power, understandably perhaps, as they had not forgotten what was in place before New Labour (New Terror, New Big Brother)! If the present empowering of national agencies & the police force continues, I fear this country will slide into anarchy and civil unrest. The more Draconian the measures taken by this feeble-witted government, the more anger and discontent will be generated. I would vote for this government being given the push at the earliest opportunity, and a stop made of all this smokescreen legislation which is being passed to cover up the really bad laws which are being put in place without either our consent or even awareness. Until yesterday, for instance, I had no idea that the police were being given powers to arrest people on any old pretext. This is very reminiscent of Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. Before anybody knows it may very well turn in to Orwell's worst nightmare. The next thing will be that they will try to stop comedians making fun of them - like the appalling Hazel Blears - and when we stop being able to laugh at their folly, there will be a tremendous lot of trouble.
    Geoffrey Grey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Geoffery, I commend you - what a good start to 2006. Whilst the majority of people are still pondering over small issues like the gone Xmas, you are bang onto the real issues that will bring this pusillanimous imbecile and his cabinet tumbling down like rag doles. Its true of the saying 'You can full some people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. That is where Tony and his croonies have gone wrong.

    I believe in 'people power' moreso people like you who keep themselves aware of issues like ID cards even when everyone else in slumber from celebrations. Tony's government has pushed us as far as we can go, so we just got to kick back as there is nowhere else to run to. Talk about infringement of people's liberties, I witnessed the worst a few weeks before Xmas by the police force that we pay for on some innocent people who were doing their Xmas shopping, all because of their colour targeting mainly one with a thick afro hair. Not just because he was black, but because he looked like someone from the Moslem community. If that is not incentive enough for me to bring this government and its force to account - nothing else will. We are free people in a free world, nothing to fear, nothing to carry to prove anything to anyone.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Acceptance of ID cards means final capitulaion to the loss of liberty our fathers and grandfathers fought for, in both world wars
    Mike Mc Cue, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • It seems that Tony Blair and his chums in Westminster are in a world of their own and rapidly retreating into a state of paranoia. This is very dangerous for the country, because history has shown that the leaders of a nation, if they become fearful of the populace, resort to draconian measures to protect themselves. This is not the only piece of useless legislation that has wasted Patliamentary time and been used as a smokescreen to hide the reality of what is being done. Tony Blair is hell-bent on disestablishing the rights and freedoms of the whole nation in pursuit of some private agenda which is rooted in unresolved personal issues. There are parallels with other 20th. century dictators who have ultimately brought their countries to ruination. This whole process must be stopped and a vote of censure passed against this government's clandestine avtivities.
    Geoffrey Grey, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Geoffrey, Remember in March 2003, over 2 million people marched in London to tell Tony Bliar that we did not want our soldiers going to Iraq. He licked George Bush's cowboy boots and sent young men to kill and die for a lie against one voice of millions of people. 98 British soldiers are dead, hundrends are wounded, an unknown number will never recover from the psychological trauma. I witnessed first hand these allegation on the 10/12/05 at the International Peace conference in London, where both ex American and British soldiers recounted their stories. So yes, Tony Blair is scared off his head, he knows there is no escaping what he has done to Iraq and the world, leave alone to the British families who lost their loved ones.

    The sad thing for Tony Blair however, is he still has this grand delusion that by somehow silencing British people under the Terrorism Act, using ID cards to falsely imprison innocent people he can get away with murder. Not this time Geoffrey. The ID card is a scam that will not save Tony Blair at all. How can one man elected by the people to lead the people go against the people and get away with it like Tony Blair has done? This to me shows how imbecilic Tony Blair's thoughts have become twisted.But like all imbeciles, he thinks by burying his head in the sand will save him - this is a man who is being rejected by even army commanders of decency in the UK who are calling for his impeachment. So let us see what he does with ID cards! I for one am not getting any imbecile scan me, for I have enough identification of who I am as it is, and I am no threat to anyone, neither do I owe any one any explanation of why I am on this planet.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards will not help with any of then things the government says they will help with, and they know it. Why then do they want us to carry them? They will further upset the balance of power between individual and government and take us one large step closer to a police state.
    Shamus Maxwell, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This is interesting! I understand the date has passed for signing -being sometime in October *maybe* making this webpage obsolete, but I'm jived enough to write and take my chances!

    I sat here tonight for 40 minutes reading every single one of the passionate listings before me. And I understand the stress.

    To be honest I find it interesting how much our feelings are related in regards to current control. I've never heard so much negative on Tony Blair- he's an angel compared to "the bush".
    ...well, from where I stand

    I'd like to make sure that we are *all aware they do this because of their blood relation as cousins -blair and bush. Tony does for Bush and Bush does for Tony because they stands to make a personal financial gain.

    Check out some of the alex jones videos, particularly the few relating to 9/11 trade tower collapse.
    They all knew what was going down!

    They can afford to screw you with the "new" idea of IDcards while I sit here never knowing the freedoms you are still fighting for.
    ID cards? Yup.. I've had one since I was born --25 year ago!

    From where I stand you guys are good as golden.
    I'm the one that needs to fear where my big mouthed leader is dragging me.

    help or sugestions welcome:

    misskittiehawk@yahoo.com
    katrina, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Katrina/Miss Kittie Hawk,

    I don't think that Blair is seeking such control because of money. I think he thinks that if everyone did what he says then everything would be great and wonderful. But people don't so he seeks control to try and ensure that they do what he says.

    I also think that since he thinks that everything he says is for the good of the country then if anyone speaks or acts against his will then they are clearly enemies of the country/people. This is might partly be a holdover from (old) labours communist (when that meant stalinist-state controls everything) leanings.

    I expect that both of these are at an unconscious level.

    You also need to consider the role of the civil service in advising on this sort of measure. They seem to believe that as the elite they are the ones best placed to control everything. If you want a more venial motive then this sort of thing also ensures that there are plenty of civil service jobs to go around!

    I don't know enough about Bush to comment on his motives.
    Thurstan McDougle, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • For anybody who does not understand the potential pitfalls of such an ID scheme, I recommend you study its use by Nazi Germany before and during WW2. If you feel that the past is irrelevant and cannot stomach reading Alduous Huxley or George Orwell, maybe a film like the 1997 'GATTACA' would demonstrate to you how too much information can be missused by the authorities.

    I am not saying that this goverment intends their database to be missused, but how can they be sure that the next one will not? So of course how can I even be sure? Simple, there are no guaranties, they can't.

    I have nothing to hide, however I cannont begin to fathom why they should have my information, or yours so they can govern the way they choose. As far as I remember they are elected to represent me and you, not control us.
    Whilst I can exercice my freedom to choose, I will never give this information up, even if it means the loss of liberties and services obtainable only with th ID card.
    Jacob Moss, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • This government claims that ID cards are necessary in the fight against terroism, credit card fraud, drug snuggling, acne, piles and every other ailment known to mankind. As the arguments against ID cards mount the governments claims in favour become ever more desperate. Accepting that the arguments in favour of ID cards are rubbish, Tony Blair now claims they must followed though because it was in the election manifesto. Really! in 1997 a pledge to introduce a crime of corporate responsibility for negligence was also in Tony Blairs election manifesto. Was it followed through, no, and why? Because a crime of corporate responsibilty would not suit Tony's friends in big business - they might find themselves in prison next time they kill us - but an ID card scheme will pour millions of taxpayers pounds into their pockets. Therefore, we are expected to pay vast sums of money for something we don't want to keep Blairs friends happy.
    Robert Whippe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • IS TONY BLAIR MAD.
    I look at this man sometime and think if i was voted a record 3 times as prime minister with a very cleaver wife earning lots of money.beautiful children and soon to be a multimilionair when I retire with speeking and book deals,why does he care about confronting peopel with policies he finds are so good for the overall health, wealth and security of my country,when he will not even be in office when it happens.He is either mad or a genuinly sinsere person....I like the man,because I am now a free Iraqi with a vote..KAMIL....(thank you for free speech on internet without fear of death.
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • In response to Thurstan McDougle's comments, every government believes it has the right way and is therefore right an justified in its actions persuading, coersing and forcing its subjects or citizens to adopt or obey its way of thinking. Individuals act this way at least some of the time. If we didn't, we'd not believe anything and be trapped in some post-modern world with no claims to truth. Perhaps this points up the inherent problem of government? Perhaps what we ought to be working towards are co-operative, consensual social organisations? If we meet to discuss the issues and decide our own fates, we begin to reform communities and so cease to need ID cards.
    Ian
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Right there Ian, maybe good idea. Anything better than coersion is bound to work. But surely ID cards cannot be that important to Tony Bliar, see he is still sunning himself in South Africa whilst his obedient MPs do as they are told.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I can't actually believe it's gone this far. I never believed the proposals would go all the way. Which is why I haven't done very much to oppose it. Yet here we are, if I want a new passport in a few years my identity will belong to the state as part of the deal.

    From here on in, I'll be signing up to every campaign and protest I can. I'd even vote Tory (yes it's that bad) if they came out totally opposed to it. Whatever happens I'll never ever permit the state to issue me with a card. I'm bloody furious it's gone this far
    Roy MacDonald, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • If we have ID cards at vast expense and people can go into a back room and forge them they are going to be absolutely useless.
    ID cards may be helpful in all kinds of things but I don't think they are necessarily going to make us any safer.
    leanne, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally agree with Roy above - if this scandalous, disastrous legislation goes through (as now seems likely) we need to make its authors pay at the next election. I honestly never thought I could bring myself to vote Tory, but if they'll commit to overturning it then I will vote for them with a glad heart. Anyone else who feels the same, tell them so (email camerond@parliament.uk) - they need to know the political mood.
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • By the way - isn't there a good case to be made in human rights law against compulsory registration, including where registration would be supposedly voluntary but effectively compulsory, e.g. if you can't have a passport or driving licence without registering? Hmmm, we need a good human rights lawyer ... Anyone got Cherie Blair's phone number?
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • ID cards, CHIP N PIN (these are devices that will steal our freedom and ultimately our SOULS!), Look at the rise in Recruitment for war.. for where for what?!?!.. in iraq (4oil), afghanistan (4poppy), anywhere else (4power) etc.. They talk about terrorism from other nations?? other nations...really?? take a closer look! OPEN YOUR EYES and YOUR MIND, the truth is BUSH, BLAIR etc, they are all puppets to the Financial Bosses in the Capital city of London and a super-power organisation. Do you research, maybe you will come across the name...ILLUMINATI.
  • I was very disillusioned when I heard the result of the ID card vote last night. What a bunch of sheep. I am a law abiding citizen, I do not trust the murderer Bliar and his bootlickers, I would not allow a paedophile to watch my children, so I will not have that lot watching me. Bliar can stick my ID card right up his a***e
    Jim Pender, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The card will contain basic identification information including a photograph of the card holder, along with their name, address, gender and date of birth.

    A microchip would also hold biometric information - a person's fingerprints or iris or facial scans, which are unique to the individual. This, as many would agree, is an extreme breach of human rights. The biometric details are designed to make the cards more difficult to forge but critics say they are not foolproof and may be more difficult for some groups, such as disabled people, to use. A national database will be created holding the personal information of all those issued with a card (not me!!).
    Tony Blair has defended his ID cards plans, saying he is confident that the public backs them in principle,(or not!)
    leanne, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm interested in the notion that by voting Tory, one might avoid ID cards and the NIR. I recall fighting the 1994/5 Criminal Justice Bill/Act, a fine piece of Tory legislation outlawing protest, parties, introducing prison ships, undermining citizen rights via changes to the arrest proceedures... Michael Howard.

    This short memory and competitive voting system is what the state as a faceless machine relies upon to gain increased power over its citizens whilst propagating the illusion that we have choice through exercising our democratic right to vote. If you feel forced to vote to make a protest, vote Green or some genuinely Socialist party or start a party of your own.

    However,'Whoever you vote for, government wins.' Currently this is a government voted in to escape Tory abuses and is pretty much assured, now, of getting its policy on ID and NIR through. What was the vote? 310 to 290, or there abouts? Now there's balance and liberal democracy delivering rights and freedoms to its people.
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Leanne, Ian and everybody else who is livid today, take heart. Did you see Tony Bliar's face in the paper today, did you see the comfort of the 170,000 pounds plane that transported him from London to lovely South Africa, a master bedroom, a dining room for kings and queens, the luxury that he enjoys at our expense? Do you think he will just give it up? My experience is that once a vampire tastes blood, you can not stop it, for like a vampire, Bliar does not care that the 170,000 pounds he spent just travelling to the poorest and yet richest country could have saved thousands of South African children dying from hunger, AIDS and poverty related diseases. Once a person gets to that form of greed, there is no compassion in him. Hence, he will do anything to maintain that level of his individual comfort.

    It is not therefore just not replacing Tony Blair with Blair Tony, it is about getting rid of such kind of totalitarian and oppressive governing of a people who meant well when they voted Tony Blair in Parliament to represent us, not to steal from us using duress as in ID cards. Just look around and listen. Personally, I hear the wind of hope, because those like Tony Blair are now unable to hide behind any vail. They mean to destroy us by putting lesgislation after legislation that prevents us leading normal free lives. The ball is in our court now. We cannot afford to be like sheep to slaughter by having ID cards because Tony Blair says so, but we can as intelligent, hard working, good citizens take a step back and say 'Like those gone before us, we will fight until victory becomes ours.'

    It is certainly what I intend to do. It is not about me telling you who to vote for or who not to vote for. It is about individuals in our millions knowing and understanding how historical our forefathers fought and won their freedom against the likes of Blair.
    florence durrant, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Mr Blair/Mr Brown, we will fight you on this every step of the way - we will not sleepwalk into a police state of your making.
    MC, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • There is a very important point that everyone needs to remember:

    The government is there to REPRESENT us - not to DICTATE to us.

    When they start to dictate to us - they no longer represent us.

    When this occurs, you must know that you now live in a Police State where democracy, human rights and civil liberties are discared in favour of the diktats of the ruling (wealthy) 'elite.'

    Ask the Jews about civil liberties being eroded in the Nazi era - you might then manage to realise what's going on in time to stop something similar happening here.

    They seem to be setting up a totalitarian future for you and your children where potentially, you HAVE no rights except those granted to you.
    Anyone who thinks that ID cards are not going to be compusory IN EFFECT - are daydreaming. They might not be made compulsory to carry but the system will be redesigned so that you can't get anything done unless you VOLUNTARILY carry it - get the idea?

    It doesn't matter whether you have 'anything to hide or not' - it's rather more a case of, 'why should I have to prove that I don't?'

    Section 25 of PACE 1984 already allows the Police to detain someone until their identity is satisfactorily obtained. The 'war on terror' excuse is merely a false ruse to encourage you to accept the otherwise unacceptable.

    If you don't think an entire society can be manipulated post WW2, refer to the Apartheid era in South Africa to see how white's were conditioned to accept the otherwise unacceptable.

    It seems people think this sort of thing can never happen - when actually, it's happening right now in front of their eyes.

    And don't think for one minute that the Police are to be trusted with your rights - they are unable to think outside of the authoritarian box - it's how they operate on a daily basis and know of nothing else.
    Nick Brook, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Bang on Nick!
    Question Time on Thursday was very refreshing. It seems like people are starting to wake up at last. Blair's determination in itself to get this in place is very sinister. Just like the war on Iraq when he went ahead despite advice from every corner, it is obvious he is only a puppet obeying his Illuminati masters. God knows what hold they have on the poor sod. DISCLAIMER:- The author does not glorify or condone terrorism including acts of terror by the state against its citizens to achieve the total surveillance Police State. (9/11 and 7/7)
    Jim, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • STOP.STOP. STOP.Going on about TONY BLAIR all the time .Are you going to impeach the M.P.s (that you elected)who voted for this bill? Do we not think the security services know a little more than the average citizen about the importance of knowing who the good guys are in this wide open country of ours.No I did not vote Labour,but I may just do that next time instead of this candle in the wind we have now, who cannot seem to understand the importance of knowing who is in our country.My teenage children all think it is a great idea ,most of their friends agree.What have you got to hide anyway,the credit people know everything about us,they even give us points for everyone else to look at...I think thats more important to contest,I did not agree to that,maybe thats what you should be protesting about.The world is changing,as my children always remind me ,I want maximum protection for my family.Lets get the 1 million who should not be here out now...
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • EDMUND:

    "Are you going to impeach the M.P.s (that you elected)who voted for this bill?"
    No, of course the MPs voting in support of this Bill should not be impeached, as the ID scheme (in some form, and on a voluntary basis) was a manifesto commitment. However, please remember that only 22% of the British electorate actually voted for Labour in 2005 (the second lowest share Labour received since World War II), so it's not really reasonable to argue that this Bill should be supported on grounds of popular approval.

    "Do we not think the security services know a little more than the average citizen about the importance of knowing who the good guys are in this wide open country of ours."
    No, I certainly don't. Besides which, if you are referring to the ID cards' suggested ability to combat terrorism, it is important to note that even the government itself has admitted that any effect will be minimal (e.g. the government quite explicitly stated that ID cards would have made no difference whatsoever to the London Transport bombings).

    "...the importance of knowing who is in our country..."
    And how exactly are ID cards going to help with this? Quite apart from the IT problems and the predicted multiple-registrations, anyone who really *is* here from abroad for illicit purposes will not have a card... besides which, it is commonly accepted that the majority of potential terrorists in the UK are likely to be *from* the UK, so would have ID cards anyway.

    "My teenage children all think it is a great idea ,most of their friends agree."
    Yes, the government's advertising campaign has certainly done a reasonable job of selling the idea to a large number of people, but that is no reason not to look for independent verification of the details being given out. Try the LSE report, for example, and compare the level of academic rigour in that report with that of the government's prediction of costs.

    "What have you got to hide anyway"
    Sigh. It doesn't matter whether you have anything to hide or not - it is a simple question of entitlement to information. I have done nothing wrong, nor do I plan to, thus I (and the tens of millions like me) deserve better than to be treated with suspicion, which is essentially what this amounts to.

    "the credit people know everything about us..."
    They know only what each individual chooses to tell them. More importantly, while credit companies/banks/local government/etc do certainly tend to know a lot about us *between them*, no single group has a complete picture (and laws prevent them from sharing this information amongst themselves without consent). With the National Identity Register, all of this information will be stored in one place, which will make it a vastly more tempting target for abuse.

    "I want maximum protection for my family."
    Very understandable, but you have to look closely at the evidence and decide whether the ID card scheme is actually capable of making the country any safer - and the balance of evidence is that it won't. All it will do is take a vast amount of public money which could instead be spent on, e.g., the NHS, which could one day be required to provide some *genuine* protection for your family.

    "Lets get the 1 million who should not be here out now..."
    Sorry, which one million are you talking about? Illegal immigrants, perhaps? If so... do you really think the NIR could make any appreciable difference to this? If so, the weight of professional opinion is against you.
  • NEW YORK MEETING 12TH JUNE 2013.
    Gentlemen we have a decision to make with reference to our European head office location.We intend supplying the whole of Europe with our products from one central location.With an annual turnover of 900 million dollars.Paris,Milan,Madrid and London are all shortlisted.
    My recommendation is London on grounds of security.Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals.All staff have to give details to the British consulate one week in advance for their card.
    The company will pay the $50 charge as it is a small price to pay for security.Keep the card on you at all time for if you go into a shopping complex without it the barrier will not let you in.This is to keep convicted muggers and shoplifters out.
    shoplifters have banning orders on their cards and the shops have given us all 3% discount they previously loaded on goods,to cover the cost of pilfering.The same applies to underground stations.Convicted muggers are not allowed in the tube network and anyone wanted by the police will set an alarm off when entering.This is all controlled by satellite coverage.When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent.what about those social security scams,one person claiming five payments,they have all stopped,saving us millions.
    The best of all is the total clampdown.This is when the security services suspect an attack.They have files on all suspects and if a button is pushed tube stations,buses,shopping malls and all high security buildings will pick up codedI.D.numbers if they are within the detector range.If they did not have their card on them they could not get access in the first place.
    Now the Brits have expelled over 1 million illegals ,they never knew they had,unemployment is very low.The tax revenue has increased and the taxes have been reduced.SMART BRITS.. SAFER BRITS...
    Last word... Dad can you give me £50 to go out tonight.I will catch a cab and I PROMISE TO TEXT HIS I.D.NUMBER TO YOU.....
    2013 ..Daddy could you see the sun until a few years ago?.What was it like?WHY DID YOU NOT CONTROL THE CO2
    WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE IN 2006.
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund's comments embody a huge number of the myths that some people seem to believe about ID cards. I'm sure Nic will be around soon to do a similarly elegant takedown to last time, but just a few points:

    "Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals." Visitors to Britain will not have ID cards.

    "When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent." You're living in a dream world, Edmund. Emails can be encrypted regardless of wheher you had to sign on to a terminal with an ID card or not.

    "shoplifters have banning orders on their cards [...] Convicted muggers are not allowed in the tube network" Your vision of a state in which having once committed a crime prevents one from shopping or travelling ever again is, er, interesting. I'm also amused by your scenario of people being denied access to shops and transport in the event of a security alert -- what a great way to blow an operation's cover by letting people know you're watching them. You want to run an efficient authoritarian police state, you gotta think these things through...

    "Now the Brits have expelled over 1 million illegals ..." Edmund, how do you think the registration system for ID cards will work? People's records will be created on the basis of their existing documents. Which means anyone here on a false passport or other false documentation gets automatically legitimised. Your comment is a great example of one of the main dangers that many security experts have identified in this scheme: people will assume that if you have an ID card then you are "legal" or otherwise OK, when in fact the system will be just as prone to error and fraud as any other - in some ways, more so.

    " I PROMISE TO TEXT HIS I.D.NUMBER TO YOU...." How will you know it's a real number, or that it's not someone else's? You'll have no way of checking. Another example of the complacency I mentioned above.

    "WHY DID YOU NOT CONTROL THE CO2
    WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE IN 2006." Entirely agree with you there, but it's got nothing to do with ID cards!
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor, many thanks for the vote of confidence, but you've already discussed most of the points I might have made! A few things I'd like to add:

    EDMUND:

    "Britain now has security cards for their visitors as well as their nationals"
    As Eleanor has said, visitors will not be required to get ID cards. If I recall correctly, this applies to those planning on spending less than three months in the country, thus making ID cards effectively useless at identifying those few foreign nationals who might actually be a threat. However this exemption will certainly not be removed, as it would affect Britain's business interests (many of those who have to travel to Britain on business would refuse to supply the required information, and so would not be allowed to enter the country... thus business would suffer. This is, I assume, the reason for the exemption in the first place).

    "Keep the card on you at all time for if you go into a shopping complex without it the barrier will not let you in"... ; "anyone wanted by the police will set an alarm off when entering", etc
    But... the current plan explicitly states that the cards will not have to be carried. I agree that this may be a planned future development, but certainly not for some time, and possibly not for decades. Many of the proposed "benefits" you describe have no place within current plans.

    "This is all controlled by satellite coverage."
    A small point, but: while it is certainly tabled that the cards may use RFID, this cannot possibly make use of 'satellite coverage', to my knowledge - the system just doesn't work that way. What this means is that any tracking (even if the cards had to be carried, which as I said above, they won't) can only be effective within range of RFID transmitters. It's not going to be very many places that can afford that kind of technology. Airports - maybe. Shops - certainly not.

    "When they introduced I.D. cards to Internet cafes very few secret messages were sent."
    As Eleanor explains above, you are clearly misunderstanding how encryption works. I could very easily sit at my computer (at home; at my own, registered address), send an email to anyone else in the world, and make it completely impossible for anyone to know what I have said. If you're good enough, you can even conceal the identities of the sender and recipient. Proving the identity of the person using a computer at the time cannot make any difference. Besides which (and more fundamentally), there are many legitimate reasons to use encryption!

    "what about those social security scams,one person claiming five payments,they have all stopped,saving us millions."
    I quote Mr. Lilley, in an extract from one of the Commons Debates: "Of the identified frauds and abuse in my Department only 5 per cent. involve abuse through misrepresentation of identity. The bulk of fraud and abuse is the misrepresentation of circumstances of people whose identity is not in doubt... [so the] gains which might come from a compulsory identity card would probably be very small."

    "The tax revenue has increased and the taxes have been reduced."
    So, in your conception, how would the country be funding the high costs of running the ID and NIR system itself, then?
  • Sorry Nic! Just never could resist an open goal.

    Edmund's comments are interesting as a representation of a mindset that is still alive and well: people who would actively like to see the establishment of an authoritarian regime in this country, because they believe (and the government is happy to let them believe) that it would "sort out" criminals and foreigners. It's the same mindset that welcomed the rise of totalitarian regimes in, for example, 1930s Europe because they thought it was high time something was done about all those "undesirables"...
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Elanor: Well said.

    On cards:
    I applied for my license to ride my motorcycle. I paid. I passed my test. I am legally allowed on the road. This is a form of control I welcome. It does not work fully, but it helps us keep safer.

    I will not apply for a license to live. I will not pay. It is a form of control I do not welcome. It will not help keep us safer. If I want people to know where I have been and what I have been doing, I will blog it.

    My grandparents fought for freedom. I always thanked them for that. I, like they, will stand up for my rights.

    "When they (the government) start to dictate to us - they no longer represent us." Bravo. Nic you have my full support in this campaign.

    EDMUND:
    What have I got to hide?
    Nothing.

    What have we got to protect?
    Freedom.
  • EDMUND:

    Oh, you're a troll! Sorry for being so slow working that out, but there are a lot of people with some genuinely very strange, groundless beliefs about ID cards, and it was easy to believe you might be one of them.

    Nonetheless, (ignoring all of the irrelevant - although reasonable - environmental stuff), you do raise some points which proponents of the ID scheme could potentially pick up on, so it's worth addressing a couple of them anyway.

    "2013...7 years from now...I am sure technology will enable us to overcome all of your concerns by then."
    Well no, obviously it won't. The officially compulsory phase of the scheme isn't due to come into force until 2013 (or presumably 2014 now, since the lengthy Parliamentary debates have set it all back a year), and that's only for the full version of the *current plans*. The things you're suggesting (e.g. it being compulsory to carry the cards, and that you won't be able to get access to basic services like transport or shops without it) could potentially be introduced one day, I suppose, but it will be decades at the earliest. Not, I hasten to add, that it would be a good thing if they were! If someone has a conviction for something 20 years ago, and has been a model citizen since, it really should not be possible for society to continue to punish them for it forever, so the world you are advocating (or pretending to, probably) is certainly not one I would want to live in.

    "5% of our social security payments saved? Thats enough to give every Pensioner £300 at least per year towards extra energy bills."
    It really isn't, you know. If the LSE report (among others) is even half-right, then the ID scheme itself (even if it works perfectly) would take far more money to set up and maintain than it might save in reduced benefit fraud. Thus the country overall would end up worse off with this scheme in place than we are without it.
  • Edmund, you are missing the point completely! I'm sure the technology will be available in 2013 that will allow us to do the things you say. I'm sure that future Governments will start to supply cards with tramsitters when the technology is cheaper, the point is. I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO TRACK ME! What right does anyone have to do this?

    Why should the Government have my fingerprints? I havn't committed any crimes! Why should I have to prove who I am to anyone? This is supposedly a free country yet this is an idea which Himmler/Eichmann/Hitler themselves would have been proud of.

    Do we really want to live in a society where anyone can walk up to someone else and scan them to check if they have committed any crimes? What you are proposing is Fascism, nothing less! What would be next, storing information on people's religion, sexual preference or maybe their medical records? Then, we can round up anyone who has committed any offence (parking offences included) and lock them away in huge camps in Northern Scotland for the rest of their lives. Where they can produce cheap goods for the rest of the population. Anyone who tries to fight against this cwill get 'Special Treatment'. Sound familiar?

    Don't think this coudln't happen, it crept up on everyone in the 30's & 40's and no one believed it could happen back then. It CAN happen again. We are now starting to lay the foundations for it to happen again.

    I don't doubt that at some time in the futuure ID cards MAY help to solve/prevent certain crimes. But at what cost? There are far more effective (and cheaper) ways of preventing crime, ID cards are NOT needed.

    I can only hope that your Fascist dreams are just that. Dreams!
    andrew clure, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I note that the BBC is reporting that state school children in Scotland are to be given ID numbers to 'bolster a child tracking system'. In support of this notion, we are led to believe that this new scheme will have fantastic benefits (rather like our proposed National ID Cards...). and it is implied that it could have prevented the death of 5-year old Danielle Reid who 'no-one realised' was missing because her mother had reported that she had been 'taken to live in Manchester'.

    Wonderful propaganada for New Labour's Orwellian aspirations but is there anybody out there who can explain how reducing Danielle to a number would have saved her life?
    John, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • THE 10 OCLOCK NEWS 1ST JUNE 2013
    Police at Heathrow airport have detained five young girls on drug charges.All five were on a flight from Barbados.It was only when their I.D.s
    were checked that customs detained them.All five were on social security benefits.when asked how they could pay the £1000 holiday charge ...we saved up was the reply.12 condoms full of crack was found...
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • FASCISTS DREAMS. THATS AN OLD ONE.
    Do you class everyone with a concern about security a Fascist..sad ..you have let yourself down.I am feeding you food for debate or do you want to silence my freedom of speech..now that does smack of......
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "It was only when their I.D.s
    were checked that customs detained them...." Really? And what was revealed by that magic ID check? Advance intelligence that they were going to commit the crime? Go on Edmund, I'm serious, I'd like to know how you think checking someone's ID gives you the tip-off that they'll be up to no good. Clairvoyance perhaps? National ID register, crystal balls a speciality? (and I think "balls" is exactly the word).
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor..

    At the moment the customs detect drug traffickers with visual means only.From 2013 everyone will produce their I.D.when entering the country and if you receive state benefit details will be on your I.D.You dont have to be inspector cluso to work out someone on income support may be up to something going to Barbados ,for £1000 holiday.
    This happens Eleanor Downside prison in Sutton surrey is full of these girls...
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ah, I see; I was thinking of quaint old-fashioned things like evidence, rather than having people handily pre-criminalised according to socioeconomic status.

    Possibly the most absurd thing about this projected dystopia is the idea that the technology would actually work. Here's an alternative scenario for your futuristic fantasies, Edmund: 1ST JUNE 2013: You are arrested and imprisoned indefinitely without knowing the charges against you. A routine check on your ID card has revealed that you have several past convictions and are known to associate with groups sympathetic to terrorism. In fact none of this is true, but the information has been incorrectly entered on your record, either by accident (an underpaid administrator updating the wrong file) or by malice (someone who doesn't like you has informed on you). You have no way of correcting this error, because "biometric data doesn't lie" -- it's on your ID record so it must be true, and everyone knows there's no smoke without fire... You are not released for several years, by which time your mental health is shattered and your career and family life are lost beyond recall. Still, I'm sure that's a sacrifice you'll be willing to make in the interests of "national security".
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Ed,
    I'm sure the Inland Revenue have an 'extra contributions' leaflet that you could read. Then you'll be able to up your tax bill to cover all these changes and to help build more prisons. Perhaps your business profits could be used to fund the next 'Crime and ID Bill'. Perhaps then, you can flex your right to free speech in the same radically meaningful way as all those intellectual european newspapers printing cartoons of muslim clerics with bomb-turbans. Perhaps you could save some of your hard earned and insecure pennies to purchase back-copies of 2000AD and read up on Judge Dredd to satisfy your Sci-Fi pretensions and abstracted fears. Perhaps...
    with love
    Ian
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Eleanor and Ian, very good points. Just one simple thing I'd like to add...

    EDMUND, re drug smuggling: "This happens Eleanor Downside prison in Sutton surrey is full of these girls...". Yes, I'm sure it is. The police seem to have managed quite well up till now without ID cards, then, don't they?
  • ELEANOR.

    EXCELLENT POINT,the first I have heard so far...
    I will research and come back to you.
    If this is the case I will be the first to chain myself to Downing street..

    Nic.

    For every "mule" as they are described,
    that is caught, three get through.
    One getting through is one too many.

    Ian...

    Whatever you are on may you live happy ever after....
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund, In reply to your point. I don't label everyone with a concern about security a fascist and I certainly don't deny you your right to free speech (did I actually say that in my comment)? I believe completely in democracy and a free society. That is exactly why I don't want ID cards. I know plenty of people who want to be secure, but to achieve that we need a secure world. That is exactly the point. We need to make the world secure, how does a national ID card make the world safer? How does a national ID card stop a person from outside Britain, coming over for a few days and planting a bomb (or exploding himself on a bus?). I asked my MP this exact question, (I got a response from the home office)their answer: It can't! If it can't do this and it won't stop benefit fraud, what will it be used for? Answer: CONTROL

    The truth is, the world is only more dangerous now than it was 20 years ago because Blair & Bush have made it that way. The reason they have done is it to scare you. A scared voter will go along with anything. Even sign away their liberty in the name of security.

    Who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to tell me I have to prove who I am? I don't have to answer to anyone. if I comitt a crime, then I have to answer society, but only then.
    andrew, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • 1st : hunting
    2nd: health and safty
    3rd: freedom of speech (since: mohammed cartoons)
    4th: not being able to campaign directly outside parliment
    5th: hand gun license-probably a good thing!

    {5th: ID cards}
    {6th: shooting/fishing}
    {7th: the lis goes on.......
    Oliver Francis, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • We had the DVLA selling details from their database to raise money.

    How can we trust any government or agency not to misuse information held on these ID cards?

    Its time people woke up and realised the potential for misuse of any information held on biometric ID cards.

    The Stasi in East Germany used to collect information on their citizens.
    Mark McGavin, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm fed up of being told what to do, compulsory ID cards, smoking bans (tho no bans on making cigarettes), constant patronising govt cant on what I should eat, local authorities than can already demand to see my entire years bank statements to prove my income, hard won human rights and civil liberties are disappearing fast. Governments exist for the populace not the other way round. The Connexions card for young people is another backdoor way of getting our kids used to carrying a card.
    What happened to our England?
    Tess Stuart, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I'm all for rationalising immigration but it can be done by other ways than issuing everyone (even non-immigrants) with ID cards. Like, for instance, not letting anyone in through the border. :)
    Stephen Brooks, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I don't want to register for a compulsory ID card. Equally I don't want to be party to nationalistic, rasist, hateful ideals and comments like those made on this site recently.

    The government seems to be doing a really good job of getting people to hate each other. That way when they introduce ID cards, and other totalitarian measures, they are seen as our protectors.

    Don't let the bigots win as if they do so will the Government.
    Heather, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • should that read

    "Rick Elliott
    Proud to be racist - if only it was a Dying Breed" ?

    A huge white elephant of an ID card system (and to be honest, most people on here actually object to the national database, not the card itself per se) is only going to drag money away from the police and health system..... have a quick read of the most recent LSE report for some actual facts on the issue.

    ID cards are not a plaster that can be sucesssfully stuck on the existing damaged systems. They need to be sorted out first or the whole thing will be a disaster.

    and just by the way, how will ID cards stop british born and bred scroungers who get lots of benefits and have never worked to pay tax.... or are they Ok because they're white?
    melancholly, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Divide and rule always worked for those in charge whether along race or economic or religious lines. Sad to see its still out there. Not all benefit recipients are scroungers, alot of them have also worked or will in the future work. Stop listening to the propaganda.
    Tess Stuart, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • State benefits are a good thing - same as the NHS - something we should be proud of.

    However, once society as a whole started to deteriorate, and morals started to disappear, and successive governments started chasing votes from single moms etc we got a situation where teenage girls would get pregnant just because they knew they would get a council house - more kids = more money, so some will have 4 or 5 kids all with different fathers. People also don't want to take menial jobs - sometimes they are better off on benefits, and this can't be good.

    I know this first hand because I grew up and still live on a council estate.

    Solution ? - We should take a leaf out of Germany's book - there, if you are unemployed, you get state benefits, but you have to work for them - road sweeping, cleaning up the town etc. This isn't viewed as menial over there - the people are respected for doing the job.

    Anyway - back to the topic:-

    If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database - it is a good thing if it can stop crime or increase the speed at which criminals are brought to justice.

    P.S.
    to melancholly; ID cards won't stop british born and bred scroungers no, we have to bring in incentives to work, or rather deterrents to not working.

    What ID cards will stop is the hoardes of knife-wielding 18-30 year old eastern european men we see loafing around our town centres, sporting expensive leather jackets and Elvis hair cuts, hanging around, smoking, drinking, pick-pocketing and intimidating our women - That's also a fact - ask me, I live in one of those towns !!! - my Nan has lived there all her life, she is now scared to walk to town alone. So to all you left-wing do-gooders with your university degrees in sociology, typing away from the back bedroom of your parents house in some leafy suburb - wake up and smell the coffee - I'm not a racist - I'm a realist !!!
    Richard Elliott, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I should apologise and thank Tess for pointing out the unintended tone of my comments - I never meant to say that all people on benefits are scroungers, I hope I never become that full of angry stereotypes. I just wanted to illustrate, as so many people have already, that the kind of "problems" that people are trying to apply the ID card solution to are impractical.

    I'll take my university degree in psychology (not to be confused with sociology) and sit in a crime ridden area of a major city, in my own house, and choose not to look at ID cards through rose-tinted glasses as the magic cure for problems in society. Labelling me as a bleeding heart liberal may or may not be correct, but it does nothing to further your arguement apart from show that at least your ill-conceived stereotypes are not limited to foreigners.

    I do not have anything to hide, but I do not want to be spied on.... Also, given the rise of parties such as the BNP, I choose not to give every government from here onwards the right to look at every piece of information ever collected about me.
    melancholly, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The last part is bang on, Melancholly. I wrote to Tony Bliar and my MP about that very thing. I wrote "I am very uneasy about ID cards. Although this scenario is far fetched and very unlikely, What if sometime in the future we have a leader who is more dishonest than you/Tony Blair?"
    Jim Pender, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • "If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database"

    OK Richard, please end your next message by posting your full address (and any previous addresses), your national insurance number, passport number, NHS number, driving licence number and details of what bank accounts you hold. After all, if you're a law-abiding citizen, what could you possibly have to fear?
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Richard Elliot:

    "If you are a law abiding citizen, then you should have no problem with ID cards or a national ID database - it is a good thing if it can stop crime or increase the speed at which criminals are brought to justice."

    If you don't see any value in the privacy arguments, fair enough - many people don't. An argument which might be more likely to persuade you, though, is simply this: ID cards cannot achieve any of the things you are advocating. It will not impact at all on benefit and identity fraud, or terrorism, and cannot make any significant impact (if any) on crime detection (the fingerprint records are the only thing that might, and the only result I can foresee from this is that more criminals will wear gloves. Marvellous.). The nature of crime may change a little, but its frequency will not diminish. The only way to achieve that is to deal with all the socio-economic factors which breed it, and seek effective deterrents, not seek a mythical quick fix.

    Arguing that there is no compelling reason *not* to introduce ID cards is not enough for you to conclude that we *should* introduce it. If it cannot achieve any of its stated aims, then it is simply a massive waste of public money which could be better spent.

    (And in case it's relevant to you, my background is in psychology and law).
  • before you say anything Richard, I work in IT, have not been to uni and am definately not a left wing activist. Quite the opposite!
    Even if you ignore all the idealistic notions of living in a free society, the bottom line is that this database will be hacked within months of it going Live. The basic notion (as I understand it from my MP) is that it will be used by private business (& Government agencies) to prove soemones identification when they apply for benefits or credit (say you want to buy a TV on Interest free credit at Currys). This way (the Government says) we can stop all fraud by using biometrics rather than easily forged documents such as driving licenses & gas bills. That means, there will be live connections from different companies to this database, this means using the Internet because t will be far more cost efficient to do it this way. What this also means is that, potentially, every person in the world could access it!
    And what happens if someone registers their biometrics but your name to get a card? What happens if the database is hacked and all that lovely information about you is sold to the highest bidder? No database in the world is 100% secure and with the kind of data being held in one place the system will act like a magnet to every hacker/criminal organisation in the world. Even on a very basic level, a hacker could use the data to send you loads of junk mail? The point is, the money can be better spent addressing the problems of crime and on a better police force. There are so many problems with this system it can't be allowed to go ahead.
    I have absolutely nothing to hide, but the point is, why should I have to prove that I have nothing to hide? Everyone is innocent until PROVEN guilty, the Governemnt seems to be taking us down a road to reverse this basic right of a free society. A road I don't want to go down.
    Andy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • A Prime Minister more dishonest than Tony Blair. Really? Now that would be something. I did wonder why the government was so obsessed with ID card when the case for them has been so discredited. Then I saw the list of individuals who had 'loaned' money to the Labour Party. Surprise Surprise. Many of them are the heads of IT companies that stand to make billions, not millions, of pounds from their introduction.
    Robert Whippe, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • IT people need to make more public noise about this in other than IT specialist circles and publications. In countries where ID cards and databases already exist, are there figures for hacking into the systems?
    Ian
    Ian, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic

    The majority of criminals are on drugs or its impulse crime.They will smash your car window or your face with whatever they can get their hands on at the spur of the moment.Get their hands on means fingerprints.Todays headlines.(not the 10 oclock news 1st june 2013) Mobile phone theft at record high.That means assaults on men woman AND CHILDREN are out of control.Stop this selfish attitude and think of the silent 20 million nic.We dont need Blair bashing,if it were Cameron it would still be 70% in favour of Protection cards (I.D. Cards)My Lords,with great respect,please think of the common people who are suffering daily with these criminals.Give the police all the help they need.This is not political.This is common sense.
    My recent research answers.
    Mr shopping centre manager what do you think of I.D.cards.
    Bring them in now was the answer.We are fed up with,not only known drug addicts,who need to feed a £200 a day habit
    but also the gangs of pickpockets.
    Underground type turnstiles and the honest customers would love it.They welcomed the exclusion of the hoodies didnt they.Remember the shops charge 3%
    to cover theft.This could be refunded to the customer.
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Nic

    The majority of criminals are on drugs or its impulse crime.They will smash your car window or your face with whatever they can get their hands on at the spur of the moment.Get their hands on means fingerprints.Todays headlines.(not the 10 oclock news 1st june 2013) Mobile phone theft at record high.That means assaults on men woman AND CHILDREN are out of control.Stop this selfish attitude and think of the silent 20 million nic.We dont need Blair bashing,if it were Cameron it would still be 70% in favour of Protection cards (I.D. Cards)My Lords,with great respect,please think of the common people who are suffering daily with these criminals.Give the police all the help they need.This is not political.This is common sense.
    My recent research answers.
    Mr shopping centre manager what do you think of I.D.cards.
    Bring them in now was the answer.We are fed up with,not only known drug addicts,who need to feed a £200 a day habit
    but also the gangs of pickpockets.
    Underground type turnstiles and the honest customers would love it.They welcomed the exclusion of the hoodies didnt they.Remember the shops charge 3%
    to cover theft.This could be refunded to the customer.
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • The Unemployed should clock in at the job centre at 6 am and out at 3pm everyday with their new I.D.card.Why are we so soft in this country.I am on a bus,a full bus,at 6 a m everyday with all the hardworking time clocking workers in London.The unemployed are still asleep in their nice warm beds waiting for their free payments to pop through their letter box.If I were unemployed I would not complain if Instead of going into London on a cold bus I could just sign on at the jobcentre.
    I would stay in my routine and if I could not get a job I would be pleased with my benefits,as I deserve.It would also stop me from getting another cash in hand job due to my attendance times....KEN.. £8 BIT STEEP old chap. This may swing some onto the dole.

    Can someone in the great solar I.T.land
    explain .If these hackers can get into
    your accounts anyway .why are you worried about us having the new I.D.cards.?
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • EDMUND:

    Again, you are citing real problems in society and using this to justify your support for ID cards... but without establishing how you think they will help. Even leaving aside for a moment the practical issue of whether a database with 60 million entries would be searchable by police as a matter of routine (and there is no way with current technology that it could be, as the system would be utterly overloaded), you are forgetting that the criminals you speak of would *know* that their fingerprints were in the register. If you are suggesting that most criminals (drug addicts or otherwise) would be too desperate or stupid to exercise even the small amount of foresight required to put on a pair of gloves, while knowing full well that their fingerprints were accessible to police, then I feel you are likely to be sorely mistaken. Moreover, those few who really *are* desperate or mindless enough to lack that foresight are hardly likely to think "ah no, I'd best not carry out this violent attack, because the police have my fingerprints."

    This has nothing to do with "Blair bashing", it is simple common sense. ID cards cannot help deal with the problems you cite, whereas other things (such as using the money to boost funding for the police, instead) can. It doesn't matter how many "shopping centre managers" you find who believe that ID cards are the answer, because I'm afraid they're not.
  • Edmund,
    Anyone with the knowledge and tools can get into any system. It's all about time & patience. Getting into a bank is relatively straight forward, it's fairly common! But to do it and make a profit involves transferring money, this leaves a trail from which you can easily get caught. People hacking into the ID card system will do it just to read your records and potentially edit them. You might be fine with this, but I am not! So, are you saying that I can't refuse something that I don't want? Do you think it is fair to force someone to register their details, if they don't want to and have done nothing wrong? Don't say it's voluntary because we all know that if I want a passport I have to have an ID card, that isn't voluntary.
    All the people who support this (no where near 70 % from my experience), have never been able to tell me HOW ID cards will stop all the anti social behaviour. So Edmund, we have a junkie, wanting to get £20 for his next fix. How will an ID card stop him smashing you in the face and nicking your wallet? If you can tell me that I will be a step closer to accepting them. How will it make someone who is a lazy article, getting off their arse and getting a job? And, if I chose to blow up a bus in London, how would an ID card stop me from doing it? ID cards will NOT change behaviour (how on earth can they), they are for IDENTIFICATION, hence the name ID card! They are to be used for commercial purposes to prove who you are when you sign up for credit or claim benefits and to allow the Government to sell your details onto mass marketing companies. That's it! Please PROVE to me how they can do anything else.
    Andy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Very well said Andy. It's really weird to read these commenters who seem to believe that an ID database will somehow "do something about" immigrants, numbers of people claiming welfare, people smoking on street corners (?!), etc. This is the constituency the government is appealing to -- the ones who seem to want to live in a world where "not being the sort of person I like" is a criminal offence, and who think ID cards will magically make that happen.
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • guantanamo bay - the most succesful tool for extremist recuitment in the world?! and unless you have to show your ID card and have it scanned to talk to a 'radical rag-head', how will it help? i just can't see any practical applications of these arguements!

    another point is that finger printing and DNA is very good at one-to-one matches - so if someone can be shown to have motive, opportunity and has left DNA at a scene, then it is compelling. as far as a DNA database which can be searched to find matches, the false positive rate will be enormous.
    melancholly, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Rick, if you had any brain cells left after your BNP meetings, you would know that suicide bommers almost always have no previous convictions. How many of the July 7 bommers had ever done anything wrong in the past? That is the whole point about suicide bommers, they have normal jobs, a house, a family, they work hard, don't claim benfits and appear to be completely law abiding citizens. Lessons Osama learnt directly from the CIA during the Afghan war with Russia in the eighties! Even if they had been very naughty in the past, how would an ID card help stop them blowing up a bus? If the police know they are extremists, then they know whether we have ID cards or not. It won't make any difference, all ID cards will do is to encourage people like you that the database can be used to isolate more and more people, which in turn will feed more extremism and more terrorists.
    Andy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Andy.
    Date of birth 1ST JAN 1965.
    Birth recorded.mum and dad details.
    Doctor..........
    school....
    library..
    NI No
    car details
    work place
    Police record
    caught with pot 1982
    council tax details
    Passport
    Driving license details
    Bank details(credit score)
    Its all there already.what else is there to know.
    Now your fingerprints please.
    Sorry sir.Did you send a letter claiming you are the yorkshire ripper?
    10,000 crimes waiting to be solved.
    These scum are on borrowed time andy.

    Could also be the scum who was going to smash you for you wallet.
    EDMUND, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Edmund, Whate are you on? All the details already held about me are on seperate databases, I don't have a police record (not even a caution) and as such they don't have my fingerprints. So, if I have never done anything wrong (and don't intend to). Why should I submit my fingerprints to a central database that thousands of PRIVATE companies will have access to? And as far as I know, the fingerprints being submitted as part of this scheme will not be cross referenced with unsoved crimes. Even if they were (and the database query for this would take years to execute), you are assuming that fingerprints were found at the crime scene. Chances are, they weren't. Do you honestly believe that however much ID cards end up costing us (be it 5 bilion, 10 billion or 30 Billion) that the money wouldn't be more effectively spent on the police force? I'm sure if you asked any chief police officer or a PC walking the street, whether they would prefer an extra 5/10/30 Billion in funding or ID cards, what do you think the answer would be? They have ID cards in other countries, not to the same extent we are proposing, but they have them. Has crime been dramatically reduced there? No, because they don't make the slightest bit of difference. If anything, they make it worse because people perceive crimes like fraud to be impossible with ID cards, all that really happens, is that the nature of crime evolves. It is a complete waste of money, every day there are announcements of thousands of job losses in hospitals, I can't get into a dentist anywhere (not even 15 miles away), public transport is a disgrace and expensive, the roads are falling apart, prisons are over crowded, people are losing millions on bankrupt pension funds & we have a growing energy crisis. Yet, despite all these huge problems, you think it is a good idea to spend tens of billions of public money on ID cards!
    Andy, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Funny how one moment the pro-database lot are telling us there'll be no information on there that isn't already held, and the next minute they're claiming this same very ordinary information will magically enable the authorities to detect crimes before they're committed and send the evil thought-crims to Guantanamo Bay.

    By the way, Edmund, the former head of MI5 has said ID cards will not help in fighting terrorism and a senior MI6 official has said the system will be "a present" to terrorists and organised criminals.
    Eleanor, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Hey you know what? - it would be a waste to spend 30 billion quid on ID cards.

    Why don't we spend it arming the police, giving them training, and telling them to shoot burglars, car thieves, muggers, rapists etc - that would solve prison over-crowding, and also act as a fantastic deterrent - that junkie would think twice about stealing for his fix if he knew he would run the risk of getting a cap in his ass !!!

    An old woman of 80 was recently punched in the face by a teenage thug, who stole her fish supper and the £1.50 or so she had in her purse. The shock was too much for her system and she later died.

    Within a month this scum bag is back on the street!

    If the cops had just shot him when they found him, then no more problem !!!! - and I tell you what, less crime because if you get caught, you die !!!

    Forget ID cards, arm the police, and really get tough on crime.

    Rick.
    Rick Elliott, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Rick, thanks for showing us your true face...

    As for ID cards and criminals - the sick fuck that stole my handbag, from my lap whilst I was in my wheelchair would not have been deterred by ID cards. Police said they were probably a junkie.

    If as expected his fingerprints are already on file, then the envelope that once held cash in my bag which they opened, will help identify them to police.

    I'd prefer that the money to be wasted on ID cards went towards proper, high quality drug rehab and counselling, with a higher profile for police on the streets, which has more of a chance of stopping crime such as these.

    Rick, before you start whineing, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal - just seen first hand how rehab saved an old schoolfriend, making him a constructive, hard working member of our community, whilst another acquaintance was banged up, not given any rehab with freely available drugs in prison, and the first thing he did on his release was robbery to fund his habit.

    ID cards will not stop the things you screech about, but well-funded and thought-through policies can.
    j, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Wake up Rick. The 15 year old is still going to steal the purse. ID cards won't stop that. What they will do though, is make it possible for you to be put in beside the 22 stone lifer and you will get a source arse for doing fuck all. Do you really trust Bliar?? Would you allow a pedophile to look after your children?? Check this out and see what Bliar's pals have been getting up to. http://www.infowars.com/video/clips/news...
    Jim Pender, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I totally support this pledge and came to sign - but missed the deadline! Personally, I will refuse regardless of the consequenses, to have the scan or provide additional details. I imagine a symathetic lawyer will be required - any suggestions? I object on too many grounds for this comment box and note that many have been intelligently put across here by other commenters. On a side not, EDMUND (also known as Kamil) has an incredible grasp of the English language on this pledge - on mine, he is an Iraqi with poor English, who is pro-occupation.
    Good pledge. Namaste, Tina Louise
  • well i dont want a card i have nothing to hide at all.but i like my freedom to express myself and go where i want and would like to reserve the right our grandparents fought for, allowing me to stand up to people who would take that freedom away from me through their dictatorship. I just finished watching V for vendetta in the cinema and how similar does that look to where we are headed (in a hollywood sort of way).with the government filling us with fear by invading other peoples countries and then them retaliating against us. telling us of deadly bird flus, scary muslim extemeists and anything else in the world they can get us to be scared of or in a fight with,they have generated large amounts of fear of terrorism and anyone who differs from ourselves.this allows them to bring in an identity card which is supposed to help reduce terrorism and imigrants and benefit fraud amongst other things.with an identity card that can probably track our everymove, and we will no doubt one day not be able to buy toilet paper without showing it,they will have there foot in the door so to speak. once we are used to this it will be implanting small micro chips into us like we do with dogs saying it will be for our benefit as we wont need to carry cards as they can get lost or damaged costing us more money, reducing our tax bill (sounds great)and it will be better for the enviroment because plastic is bad for the environment and we dont want all that scary global warming do we(more fear). they will have total control of us leaving them with the ability to change laws and rules to suit them and anyone who stands in there way will easily be locatable and dealt with preventing any resistance against the government in any form, check mate.of course it wont start off like that at first im sure it will be a few limited things you require it for but then the requirements will probably grow over time untill you cant do anything without an id card.muhahahaha or perhaps in reality it will prevent anyone under 18 buying drink and knives and fireworks and other naughty things them kids shouldn't have that make our lives miserable, it might also speed up the process that gets us our various types of benefit, or save us digging around the house trying to find two forms of i.d every time you want a loan or credit card or even a video card so it may be a good thing after all hmmm....the debate continues.
    gareth, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • I heard this scheme was going to cost £19 billion over 10 years to run.

    That £19 billion could instead be used to fund an extra 64,000 policemen/women over 10 years.
    David, 7 years ago. Abusive? Report it!
  • Tina,

    Thanks for your support, sorry the deadline had expired.

    With the passing of the ID cards Bill into law, we shall shortly be mailing all those who signed our 3 pledges (refuse, refuse2 & resist) with details of how to donate to the defence fund. There is of course no obligation to pay up on an 'unsuccessful' pledge - but many have already told us that they will.

    Finding a friendly law firm who can administer it and hold monies in trust (without charge) has proven a little more difficult than we had hoped!

    We also appreciate that there are quite a number of people like you who will refuse to register as well. We'll be providing another way for people to declare this, soon.

    Thank you for your patience.

    Phil Booth
    National Coordinator, NO2ID
This pledge is closed for new comments.

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