http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state Comments on 'arrange for my MP to receive a copy of Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion"' en-gb team@pledgebank.com hourly 2 1901-01-01T00:00+00:00 http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2330579 But I would still like you to sign my petition! http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2328643 Ah, fair enough then. That's probably much closer to the truth! http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2324852 I didn't mean it's 100% a sham, just a bit! I have been reading some of the govnt responses to petitions and they mostly ignore the key question and skate around the issues. Typical politicians' tactics. Here is an example: http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page14536.asp http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2322729 "The petitions site is a bit of a sham" -- depends what you think it's supposed to be. It's not direct democracy, where signing a petition actually gets laws directly onto the statute books, but I do think it's useful to get some dialogue going between people and government that isn't filtered through the media, and that's exactly what happens with the bigger petitions. *And* the dialogue is public too. If you take the case of the biggest petition to date -- the anti road tax petition with 1.8 million signers -- I think we can safely say that the petition and the publicity it drew was instrumental in the shelving of a 5 billion pound government project. Now, whether the project should have been shelved or not is an entirely different debate, but I think it's a good indication of what can be achieved with a good petition and lots of support. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2321094 There is a petition on the Number 10 site - disestablish the Church. Here is the link: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/churchofengland/ OK, the petitions site is a bit of a sham, and they'll never do it, but every little helps. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_2318340 The religious nutters are just that - nutters. We need to ridicule them every moment of our lives. We atheists need to wake up and recognise that what these people represent and preach is intellectual dumbing down of the masses. Humanity can never come close to reaching its potential (which ought to be limitless)if it boters to give air-time/debate-time/credence to people who believe in the sacredness of humancrafted texts. Im going to recommend a simple pledge. Pledge to ridicule religion every time it appears anywhere in your life. Of course I would not advocate intolerance of any kind - people are free to believe what they like - but they are not deserving of my respect. What do you think? Do you really trust a man to run your country if he believes a dead guy got up and walked after three days? Or walked on water? Peraps take a look at a fledgling atheist community at http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/Atheist and perhaps listen and laugh with Pat Condell's Podcasts http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1902238 Please keep the comments civil, folks -- this is a place for discourse, not personal attacks. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1874954 John, quick question. If doctors are blasphemous witches dose that mean if you or someone you loved got cancer or was hit by a car you would pray instead of going to the hospital, or would you just visit an engineer. Seriously dose anyone take this person for real, he must just be making this up for a laugh because he doesn’t make any sense. He says that science is closed minded and biased and religion is not, he regards the bible as an ironic document but believes in witchcraft, he has two science degrees yet seems to hate science and scientists guts. I mean come on, he contradicts himself every time. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1874840 Science does have bias and deceit. It is human endeavour after all. However religion is pure bias and deceit. I has no objectivity or truth in it whatsoever. Science overall has delivered massive benefits to the whole of humanity and continues to do so. Almost no aspect of your life isn't enhanced by science. Religion is an intellectual and emotional prision that in the end only serves itself. Religion intereferes with and harms almost every aspect of society. Including holding back science. If you're insisting on an either/or then there is only one side to be on. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1870957 TWO degrees? Well why didn't you just say that to start with? Can't stop now people - got to buy me an ad hominem awayday special for the big ole Elipsis Bus on the road to Damascus. Beep beep! http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1870504 Clive with two degrees in the physical sciences I do get the science thing, but unlike you I have an open mind. science IS an inherently biased system ( I should hesitate to quote that nutcase Sagan if I were you). science is often not only blind faith BUT deliberate , although well-meaning deception (Sound familiar?). here's a little thought experiment for you......oh no I'd be wasting my time YOU HAVE ALREADY DECIDED......your arrogance astounds me.................Oh and by the way th biological sciences and medicines are little more than witchcraft! ..the so-called scientific method threw out a whole raft of knowledge because they couldn't prove it scientifically......the only real progress in medicine has been by engineers.....oh and if it had been been left to that great scientist Fleming, we still wouldn't have re-discovered(sic) penicillin....each week I have a good laugh at the utter bilge published by geneticists et al....keep up the good work chaps, and your pretence at objectivity...hope the publishing bias works out for you http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1870198 John: when science bashing I really wouldn't bring the flat-earth thing into it if I were you. It's a fairly recent concept and the founder and President of the International Flat Earth Society, Samuel Shenton, was a devout Christian. When science delivered the killer blow to their theories in the form of photos of a spherical Earth taken from space, he claimed that they were a hoax. And that's the difference between us "science" guys and you "blind faith" guys. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1869927 Sorry, the link is below in my name. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1869921 Interesting you'll also find that there is no time in recorded history where the informed believed the earth was flat. The Greeks even measured its circumference. OK, so the people who wrote the Bible thought it was flat (Daniel 4:11) but you have to forgive them. It isn't as though they had access to some higher authority for information while writing it! Even the Christians (always backward when it comes to science as you know) knew this by the Middle ages. I've click the link above for an article on this. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1869909 Joh T think you're making a mistakes there. You're probably a very liberal Christian who doesn't realise that there really are people daft enough to take the Bible as a literal documentary statement of fact. We have Pete Hodge here who believes the world was *really* created in seven twenty four hour periods. Not an allegory, not a metaphor but a little statement of fact about the real world. Incredible I know. But these people are real. I also think you'll find they are the uneducated ones. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1868693 You don't quite get this "science" thing, do you John? I'll try to make it easy for you and just quote Sagan: "In science it often happens that scientists say, ‘You know that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,’ and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn’t happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion." http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1866279 what you "science" guys fail to realise is that back in the day YOU would have towed the party line, and been the flat-earthers...you sound like the spanish inquisition!....People did take greek myths & legends seriously...THEY STILL SHOULD as they contain manifest truths which you ignore at your peril.....these science posters think that religious people are stupid and ignorant and can't distinguish between moral truth, metaphor and actuality. You sound like an-uneducated bunch of arrogant bullies. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1861631 Dan Allen, I said that ‘No-one takes the Greek myths and legends literally, but a few people used to’ And as I also said, they were the Ancient Greeks. There is no need to refer you to any materials, go online, to a library or bookshop and look for Ancient Greek Religions and you bound to find something (well if the last two are any good you will), there is also a revival in these beliefs. However, you might have to go online to read about those (www.hellenion.org, as a start before you ask) and even they might have to admit that there is not a palace of the Gods at the top of Mount Olympus. From you post it sounds like I disagree with you, however I don’t. I am in full agreement (however I do view it as stupidity as well). I thought I made that clear but I must have been wrong. Sorry. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1859418 Someone said above: No-one takes the Greek myths and legends literally, but a few people used to Can you refer me to some materials? It must have been completely obvious that there was no palace of the Gods at the top of Mount Olympus - or was it? The ability of religious people to blind themselves to the truth is astounding. I'd love to know more about it. Religion isn't stupidity - it is the deliberate half conscious suppression of your own reason. http://www.pledgebank.com/church-and-state#comment_1859202 Hello again Rebecca, "I will tell you to watch this space, for revival is coming to these lands. At the end of 2008 you will see what I mean." Care to elaborate? I'm intrigued. What exactly do you expect to happen by the end of 2008? Nic